Dormie Club #15 - Temporary Blindness

[Ed Oden]

Here is the view from the center of the fairway on the 15th hole at Dormie Club...



You can just catch a glimpse of the flag peaking over the hill on the left. 

Now, here is the view from the tee...



I think it's very interesting that you can pretty much see the entire green from the tee on a hole where the approach shot is designed to be at least partially blind.  I'm not sure I've seen this before.  Is this a brilliant twist on blindness?  Or does it defeat the purpose of having a blind approach?

[Scott Warren]

Interesting, Ed.

How long is the hole? Can you earn a decent look at the green for your approach by flirting with the RHS off the tee?

[Ed Oden]

It's a medium length par 4.  Yes, you can get a better view by challenging the right side.  But it is very dangerous.  The two balls in this picture are probably as far right as you would ever intentionally play and, although the view is better, it is still partially obscured...

[Chris Cupit]

Other than cutting down that little pine tree growing up in the ravine (right center of the ravine maybe in line with the left edge of the green), I really like the hole. As you stand on the tee knowing you need to flirt with the right side to open up a better view puts some nice added pressure on the tee shot.  

I like "partial blindness". Kind of like showing just the right amount of leg or cleavage. I don't want complete nudity or a burqua covering everything--tease me a bit

[Bill_McBride]

The Dormie Club is on a very hilly site but the routing makes it a good walk. There are several doglegs with steep side slopes, and several blind tee shots.  Lots of slope in the diabolical greens.

[Mark_F]

It looks like a pretty cool feature.  Messes with your head a bit if you haven't been paying attention on the tee.  Looks like a green with little depth, and something nasty over the back.  I'm guessing if you just hit it over the hump it takes the roll down onto the green, but hit it a little too far and you are over the back?  Leave it short on top and you have a killer chip or putt.  There should be more like it.

Although those pot bunkers look shite.

[Rob Rigg]

Ed,

Seems fantastically unique to me?

I don't recall every seeing something like that anywhere on a hole.

Paying attn to where the pin appears to be on the tee obviously has some benefits!

Takes out some of the visual on the approach and forces you to use your brain.

[Jay Cox]

The 14th hole at Red Tail in Massachusetts, by Brian Silva, has the same feature:  a full view of the green from the tee and a blind approach (there, to a punchbowl green) after a downhill tee shot.  The name of the hole is "Disappears."

The option to drive close to the hazard on the right for a partial view of the green is an exciting twist for the Dormie Club hole.  The hole looks like great fun to me.

[JC Jones]

Ed,

Thanks for the pictures.  What strikes me is the amount of movement in the land.  I assumed, though I've not been there, that the topography of the area was relatively flat. That does not seem to be the case on this hole.

[Mark McKeever]

Ed,

How long is the hole?

Mark

[Matt Wharton]

Ed,

IIRC, those tee shots in the picture were played at the pot bunkers and the topography moved them along the ground to the right.  I think that is part of the brilliance of the hole.  Aim at the pot bunkers and let the ground move you further right...cause a direct line to the right is perilous.  The partial blind shot reminds me of the approach from the far right side of the fairway at the 5th hole of Lake Bonaventure Country Club where I grew up...only difference there was no view of the green on that hole from the tee.

[PCCraig]

Ed:

It looks to be a fun hole but as soon as I saw it I knew I had just played a similar hole yesterday: The 14th on the River Course at Blackwolf Run. The same strategy with the only known difference being that Dye used a lake as a hazard on the right.

From Ran's review:

14th hole, 310 yards; A strategic, if manufactured, hole. The tee shot is a version of the Cape, only with probably a long-iron or fairway wood (or you could be like Steve Elkington and Ernie Els and just go after the green with a driver!). The closer one plays to the water, the more one can see of the green and the more straightforward approach he will have, for there is a large berm that juts in from the left at the 70 yard mark that hides the view of the green from the left side of the fairway. What, then, is so bad with having a blind approach for a pitch shot? Why risk the water just to see the green? The main reason is not the visibility but the front-left bunker that comes very much in play for an approach from the left and the player is pitching more toward the water with his second.

[Jim Franklin]

How far from Raleigh? What is the weather like in mid-November?

[Craig Disher]

Looking at the green from farther left than Ed's photo you can see how the green has almost disappeared and only the top of the flag is visible - if at all. The green is large and sloped up the back. The danger is to the right of the green where there is a steep fall-off into bunkers.  A shot with the right weight over the mound on the left - and well to the left of the green itself - almost guarantees the ball will settle on the green.

The hole plays between 280 and 260 yards with a short tee that avoids most of the wetlands at 264 yards. The distance from the back tee to the pair of bunkers is almost 300 yards; on that line, the carry over the wetlands is 220.

[Mark McKeever]

If I was on that tee, I would be taking it directly at that far tree that sits directly on the top of the mound.  If it hits the right side I assume it would feed down onto the green?

Mark

[Dale_McCallon]

Does anyone know if this place is allowing public play?

[Ed Oden]

For what its worth, I really liked this feature once I noticed it...and that didn't occur until I was looking back over my pictures.  I'm sure the concept has been used elsewhere.  But I don't recall seeing it before on courses I have played.  It's always nice to see something new, even if it isn't necessarily one of a kind. 

[Tom_Doak]

Ed:

It looks to be a fun hole but as soon as I saw it I knew I had just played a similar hole yesterday: The 14th on the River Course at Blackwolf Run. The same strategy with the only known difference being that Dye used a lake as a hazard on the right.

From Ran's review:

14th hole, 310 yards; A strategic, if manufactured, hole. The tee shot is a version of the Cape, only with probably a long-iron or fairway wood (or you could be like Steve Elkington and Ernie Els and just go after the green with a driver!). The closer one plays to the water, the more one can see of the green and the more straightforward approach he will have, for there is a large berm that juts in from the left at the 70 yard mark that hides the view of the green from the left side of the fairway. What, then, is so bad with having a blind approach for a pitch shot? Why risk the water just to see the green? The main reason is not the visibility but the front-left bunker that comes very much in play for an approach from the left and the player is pitching more toward the water with his second.

Ed / Pat:  The above hole is another version of the 5th hole at Long Cove, which we discussed last week.  Mr. Dye built at least 7 or 8 similar holes after the one at Long Cove.  On nearly all of them (except at Old Marsh, best I can remember) the green is visible from the tee, but invisible on the approach, unless you play to just the perfect spot.

[PCCraig]

Ed:

It looks to be a fun hole but as soon as I saw it I knew I had just played a similar hole yesterday: The 14th on the River Course at Blackwolf Run. The same strategy with the only known difference being that Dye used a lake as a hazard on the right.

From Ran's review:

14th hole, 310 yards; A strategic, if manufactured, hole. The tee shot is a version of the Cape, only with probably a long-iron or fairway wood (or you could be like Steve Elkington and Ernie Els and just go after the green with a driver!). The closer one plays to the water, the more one can see of the green and the more straightforward approach he will have, for there is a large berm that juts in from the left at the 70 yard mark that hides the view of the green from the left side of the fairway. What, then, is so bad with having a blind approach for a pitch shot? Why risk the water just to see the green? The main reason is not the visibility but the front-left bunker that comes very much in play for an approach from the left and the player is pitching more toward the water with his second.

Ed / Pat:  The above hole is another version of the 5th hole at Long Cove, which we discussed last week.  Mr. Dye built at least 7 or 8 similar holes after the one at Long Cove.  On nearly all of them (except at Old Marsh, best I can remember) the green is visible from the tee, but invisible on the approach, unless you play to just the perfect spot.

Tom:

You're right, I should of seen that after reading that thread last week. Thanks for the info!

Is it possible that Bill Coore picked up the idea from Dye while working with him?  

[Jaeger Kovich]

After 5 rounds at Kiawah the week before, it wasn't that hard to figure out... What I think makes it a nice feature is the way it distorts your perspective and judgment of distance.

Kiawah Ocean Course 13

[jonathan_becker]

Here's a few shots of 15 from this past sunday.  The dormant surface was in excellent shape.

tee shot



back towards the tee



approach from 115



the green in full view

[Brian Stewart]

The 14th hole at Red Tail in Massachusetts, by Brian Silva, has the same feature:  a full view of the green from the tee and a blind approach (there, to a punchbowl green) after a downhill tee shot.  The name of the hole is "Disappears."

The option to drive close to the hazard on the right for a partial view of the green is an exciting twist for the Dormie Club hole.  The hole looks like great fun to me.

I wonder if this is something Silva commonly does because he did the same thing at Deerwood in Jacksonville, FL.  It is a bit different in that the hole is a long par 4 but you can easily see the green from the tee while on the approach it is impossible to see until you get really close.  When I lived in JAX I was a member there and commonly had a SW or LW in (also has a risk reward element where you can cut a large portion off if you can carry the ball 255 in the air) and couldn't see the green at all.  On days when it played into the wind and you had to lay up you could have as much as a 4 iron in and still couldn't see anything but the top of the flag. 

[Garland Bayley]

It would be hard for me to believe this is something new. Harbottle created a hole like this in #14 at Palouse Ridge. Slope is opposite direction with bunkers on the left that must be challenged to get the view.

[Carl Nichols]

Here's a few shots of 15 from this past sunday.  The dormant surface was in excellent shape.

tee shot



back towards the tee



approach from 115



the green in full view

Make the putt?  How did you play the hole?

[George Freeman]

This looks like a phenomenal hole, made even more so by the fact that it is drivable, or nearly drivable.  I love the use of the hill that obscures the view of the green more and more the safer you play from the tee.  I would assume that pin placement, viewable from the tee box, will dictate strategy.  Firm and fast conditions (which appear to be present from the pics) look like they only increase the interest of the hole with the undulating land and the ability to move the ball off the slopes. 

Just awesome. 

Also, there is something about dormant bermuda that makes me feel all funny inside.  It looks like an incredible playing surface.