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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« on: October 31, 2010, 03:22:30 PM »
In the current Golfweek in an article about the Greenbriar and a few lawsuits it's involved in, including our own Lester George who is apparently owed about 200k, there is the following quote:

" the course has been shut down-reportedly until next year's Tour event-for significant renovations.  Work is being undertaken by McDonald & Sons, with Steve Wenzlof and Leslie Clamor from PGA Tour Design Services serving as design consultants.  Old White's greens will be regrassed with Tyee bentgrass and the slopes softened on at least eight holes."


Talk amongst yourselves... :-\


Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2010, 04:15:07 PM »
And to think people always ask me how important it would be to me to design a course that hosts a Tour event!

Kris Spence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2010, 04:16:11 PM »
Jud, when the tour event decided to move to Sedgefield CC in Greensboro NC a 1926 Ross, I was asked to walk the course with Steve Wenzlof so he could look at what we were doing and provide insight from the Tours perspective.  I don't think the greens were seeded at the time, I can't remember but I do recall him saying on the first green, "Tour players don't like any slopes over 1.5%" and I cringed at the thought of that philosophy.  I sort of chuckeled under my breath and told him that the Tour players should love Sedgefield then.    There are very few slopes under 1.5% at Sedgefield with much of the really good hole locations and corner sections in the 2.5 to 3.5% range.  I don't remember Wenzlof having many positive things to say but he didnt press any issues with the slopes and contours that were in place at the time.  

Sadly, the tournament set up guys dont venture very close to the areas that require a thoughtfull approach and or a chance to three putt.  I thought they did a better job last year and the winner still shot -20.  August is the worst possible time to play bentgrass in Greensboro with the greens being very receptive and on the slow side.  The players I spoke too really liked the movement and variety in the greens as compared to what they saw week after week.  

I haven't seen the greens at Old White but the thought of softening them to the level he discussed at Sedgefield concerns me .  It seems most of the players dont necessarily agree with the 1.5% philosphy when speaking to me but maybe there's a different conversations/thoughts by players going on behind closed doors.  

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2010, 04:24:50 PM »
It's clearly unfair...
they only shot -20


......and these guys are good


 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

flatten the greens and put in a couple lakes
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2010, 05:19:54 PM »
Big mistake by Jim Justice. Not what I was hearing in terms of all 3 courses being redesigned by the same firm. Oh welll. LG's work lasted a few years.

Classic, guy shoots 59 and the course needs softening.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2010, 07:15:56 PM »
It's my understanding that the PGA Tour is making a major marketing change as well advertising that "These guys MIGHT be good."

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2010, 12:33:25 AM »
What a shame.  The old White was one of the tournaments I made an effort to watch some of it, of course because of Lester's work, and keeping that work up to date as it unfolded, with us here on GCA.com.  It was fun to watch that tournament because it had classic features of Raynor to see in play by the modern players. 

They were all complimentary of Justice at that time as being the benevolent toon-a-mint host and resort savior.  I reckon he is just another canary in the coal mine... when it comes to non-golf savvy folk getting too involved with classic golf courses as an enterprise of restless money seeking status over tradition and preservation of the classic nature of the game.   :-\

Lester, you done good, sorry it looks like a poor outcome.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2010, 09:11:18 AM »
Good points Charlie, I have played there numerous times and have never been there when it was firm and fast. Lester's work is fantastic though.

Mr Hurricane

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2010, 09:17:44 AM »
Just out of curiosity, what were the slopes on the greens at Aronimink GC, restored, supposedly to Ross original greens, although probably softened slightly?  Why were those acceptable if they were over 1.5%? 

Did we not discuss Liberty National also softening their greens?

It's not that I don't understand the Tour and their right to do what's best for them. I am just wondering why some courses seem to get a pass and others don't.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2010, 09:18:41 AM »
The event Old White hosted this past year was probably my favorite event I watched all year on TV, including the majors, for pure viewing pleasure and excitement. Multiple players gunning for the win with a 59 edging out the victory.

What's the problem?
H.P.S.

TEPaul

Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2010, 09:52:38 AM »
Having spent a couple of days at Old White with Lester and the guys (before the tournament), I'd say Greenbriar and Justice should save their money and leave the course alone.

If they want a tournament result on that course that may not be -20 they should very carefully follow the set-up model and prescription that Aronimink and John Goesslin followed this year for the AT&T.

It's basically to use some tough pin positions, get those greens firm enough where tour players cannot throw darts on approaches, even with wedges, and where the ball will not automatically check or suck back and get the greens to around 11.5.

If the weather cooperates and they can get that set-up model and prescription at the Old White it should be a wonderful tournament to watch and the players would probably like it just as much as they did Aronimink.

I had some high hopes for Greenbriar, The Old White and Justice about 4-6 months ago but since then the guy seems to be going in a diametrically wrong direction on a whole lot of fronts. My suggestion to him would be to at least start in the right direction on one front first by paying his bills and paying them on time or else just stop spending so much money in such an arbitrary and needless manner and stop blaming everyone else when it doesn't work out as he has done since taking control of Greenbriar!

I understand the man made a fortune in agriculture and coal and many consider him to be either a good or perhaps just tough businessman but the hospitality and entertainment business (the famous Greenbriar and TV and a pro tour tournament) probably isn't much like the rough and tumble business world of large scale agriculture and coal. It looks like his reputation in his former ventures just caught up with him and pretty quick in his latest one and he better do something about it and fast or his reputation might get worse and on a far more public level.

I sure will say though that Jim Justice really is quite the character. His name alone got my attention before ever seeing the man and his presence did not disappoint. He's huge, but he seems to counter-balance that by a very calm and low-keyed down-home aura. One tends to feel they may be in the presence of a world-class, massive scale visionary but we know from history that people like that can have ups and also downs and on a very very large scale too (some good analogies may be Henry Flagler or even Marion Hollins).

I'm sure someday they will write a biography about Jim Justice and his life and times. I hope for his sake and the Greenbriar's and Old White it turns out positive in the long run somehow.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 10:07:03 AM by TEPaul »

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2010, 10:09:51 AM »
Time will tell, but this move seems strange. The pros were shredding it already. It's a course that can be overpowered length wise at present and without a complete re-do,  she doesn't have much extra length in her. It's in a valley setting, so getting it dry and firm isn't easy, but it's possible with talent and mother nature's cooperation. The greens are its main defense, why tamper? To re- contour them for a few more pinnable options the one week you might run them at higher green speeds than normal seems like a waste of money. Guess they are shooting for a 56 to be posted next year.

I feel for Lester on this one. His work was lauded by everyone and he seemed very pleased with the contributions he had made. The facts will  be presented in due course, but this whole lawsuit business, on multiple fronts, doesn't help a resort or ownership's reputation when trying to restore their pedigree as a top golf destination.
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2010, 10:31:05 AM »
I played the Old White in October of 2008 and it was firm and fast tee-to-green, as I recall.

Could they theoretically host the Greenbrier Classic on the Snead course at the Sporting Club and leave the Old White alone if they wanted to?  Hopefully the greens that get softened at the Old White won't be robbed of too much of their interest; they were really cool post-restoration.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2010, 10:40:27 AM »
I was really keen to take a trip there...Great golf, poker, etc...Now not so much.....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2010, 10:44:01 AM »
Only played the Old White once pre Lester but I question whether it is possible to get the course firm and fast given the bowl effect of the surrounding hills?

TEPaul

Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2010, 10:51:13 AM »
You know, this kind of news really does put something else in mind, at least to me. I don't know what Justice, Greenbriar, the Tour etc are tryhing to accomplish by softening up to eight greens at Old White unless they are looking at some goal of getting the winning score to something like -30!!

But if that is not their goal and they are looking to strengthen the challenge of the course for Tour players they are going about it in the complete opposite and wrong way. It's sort of like having a goal of making a car go faster by putting a governor on it.  ???

It also seems to me that perhaps a larger number of tour players than most realize actually enjoy the challenge of these older courses with their far more contoured and complicated greens to play and score on.

So my suggestion to the Tour would be to get their Tour Policy Board which I understand is made up of a group of Tour players to demand that the Tour not ask that something like this be done to the Old White or any other older courses they play or are looking at to play in the future.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2010, 11:32:36 AM »
I don't know if it is the tour as much as the specific design consultants that are involved in the specific reworks....I think that one school of thought comes in and restores with contours similar to original...then in many cases the supt or the consultant feel it can be maintained easier w less slope....AND then the other school of thought comes in and says 1.5 slope is it....
I think there are a few places right now where clubs have allowed both schools of thought to be on a project and all it will bring is a huge argument over which way is right....As much as this site likes it one way ..there is a large contingency in the industry that thinks it is all crazy and will go out of their way to do it the other way....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old White- Greens to be softened?!
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2010, 12:37:33 PM »
another possibility is that the purported softening is not even really deemed to be necessary by Justice et al but is, instead, listed along with the re-grassing simply to create a defense in the litigation with Lester.