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Gib_Papazian

Olympic Part II
« on: February 11, 2002, 11:34:23 PM »
Gentlemen:

It has become fashionable for the Treehouse cognoscenti to turn their noses up at the Olympic Club, dismissing it as characterless or conjuring up comparisons with traditional whipping boys like Medinah.

To make matters worse, Ran Monolith has given tacit approval - even encouragement - to any ape wishing to use a bone to beat on my home course with snotty or derisive remarks.

One of the reasons I have avoided chiming-in is the insulting and argumentative tone of previous postings towards my good friend Joel Stewart.

I do not consider it compulsory to defend the honor of my club because quite frankly, many of the comments betray an astounding lack of understanding about the golf course. Additionally, while I can appreciate the sentiment of the gentleman who started this thread, it doesn’t sound as if he has had sufficient experience to make any sort of value judgement aside from stating it is the best he has played.

Let’s take a few points one at a time:

A. We’ll start with golf’s most beloved figure because he threw down the gauntlet, intentionally trying to bait the Armenian, which is illegal in most states but evidently not the backwoods of North Carolina.

You see Ran, when I say something makes my personal top ten I am not stating it is one of the top ten courses in America. You speak of our mutual devotion to Raynor and C.B, a fair enough comparison. However, if I asked you name your ten favorite eateries and the list had seven Chinese restaurants on it, I would have no doubt what your favorite kind of food is, but your taste would seem a bit narrow, eh?

I have more room in my tent for all sorts of golf courses and do not feel wedded to one particular style. When I assemble my personal top ten, I feel like there needs to be diversity.

NGLA, Piping Rock, Creek and Fishers Island all serve different recipes of Sweet and Sour Redan or Moo Shoo Biarritz, but my list of fav’s has to also include a steakhouse, sushi bar, California Cuisine and Pacific Rim fusion restaurant.

Olympic Lake is unique in many respects and I challenge anyone to name a golf course similar to it. No, it does not present obvious  risk/reward strategies from the tee  - but the key word is OBVIOUS. It is impossible to fully digest everything on that course until you have played it 20 times.

The point is that your subjective comparisons are silly. Nobody is seriously going to state that Olympic Lake is one of the best ten courses in America because as a total package, there are at least ten I can think of with more content.

But for purity of challenge with strategies nearly unique to the Lake, it makes my list in the same way that the Grateful Dead occupy a revered spot on my music selections. Yes, the Beatles and Stones are better by an absolute measuring stick of popular opinion, but to my taste, “Sugar Magnolia” speaks to me more than “I Wanna Hold Your Hand.”
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Olympic Part III
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2002, 11:35:31 PM »
B. It is entirely immaterial in determining the quality of a golf course whether a club has hosted a national championship or PGA. The Atlanta Athletic Club has had two. Kemper Lakes, Valhalla . . . shall we continue? Any club that derives its sense of worth from hosting a major championship has self-esteem problems and likely an inferiority complex besides. Olympic has turned down the PGA many times and refused to host a U.S. Open between 1966 and 1987 - relenting only when some of the younger members insisted. The entire circus is a horrible inconvenience and while I have enjoyed both 1987 and 1998, it encourages a macho mentality amongst our less circumspect members who cannot understand when rough lines need to be returned to their former boundaries. In fact, there is no relationship whatsoever between the course we play and the Lake under Open conditions. Provided I hit the fairway, I normally hit 4 less clubs into every green because the fairways are rumpled linoleum. As to the Tour Championship, Hell will freeze over before they are allowed to return. The PGA Tour left a bad taste in the mouth of many - having nothing to do with the condition of the course. In fact I thought the Lake played far easier for the Tour Championship than it does for everyday play.

C. We might point out that #1,3,4,5,6,9,10,11,12,14 &17 are absolutely wide-open in front of the green, encouraging a run-up if you so choose. Some, like #9 and #12 have a basin in front of the green and a brilliant grassy knob on either the upslope (#9) or the downslope (#12).  Additionally, #2,7,&16 have an entrance ramp that can be accessed provided you are coming in from the correct angle or can work the ball toward the opening. The only forced carries on the golf course are found at #8,13,15&18. The course only plays really long if you cannot work the ball or control your trajectory.

D. Now that our rough lines are closer to correct and the tree encroachment has been improved, it is now possible to use the contours of the ground to direct your ball off the tee - an essential precept of strategic interest. Those who thoughtlessly blast away will often drive through the fairway not because the turn points are in the wrong spot, but because they either chose an incorrect line, were unable to work the ball, or failed to use the natural contours to deflect the ball. Experienced members use the subtle down-slopes to drastically increase the distance of their tee shots. Remember, many of the fairways turn left but tilt right - and visa versa.

E. With the exception of the 1st green, which has quite a bit of internal contour, many of the greens appear a bit flattish to the untrained eye. However, once they are playing at appropriate speed, it becomes obvious how severely pitched they are. As an example, the first half of the third green slopes gently up as an extension of the fairway and then slopes directly away at the midway point. #10 is also an extension of the fairway and looks flat but actually slopes front to back. The 5th hole looks flat until you realize it slopes 4 degrees from right to left. Not as severely as #5 at Merion, but it is not unusual in the summer to have an eight foot break.

F. So what are its flaws? Oh, it has a few. The obvious bone of contention is the infamous Flat-Top tree on the 5th hole. Yes, it is a bit silly, but has become a sort of institution and any hazard that provokes that much argument ought to stay just for the sake of discussion.

The mounds installed by Weiskopf on the 7th hole are an absolute eyesore and totally out of context with the golf course. I do not mind the 3-tier Jones Sr. green, but I think I might have liked the 2-tier green a bit better from the early 1970's.

At the 8th, although tree trimming has brought the right side bunkers back into play, the rear bunker is too far from the back to be a threat and is out of play. The only shot that will find it is a skull out of the front bunker. It needs to be nudged into the back of the putting surface.

The terraced tees at the 12th are just plain wrongo. I can understand that they are functional, but the rounded shape of them in the front is an architectural  non-sequitur when compared to the rest of the teeing areas and offends my sensibilities. Squared off would be fine, but they do not fit.

The 14th hole has been completely marginalized because of an arbitrary rough line that extends 40 yards from the left side,  dictated by an enormous eucalyptus tree overhanging the corner like a ugly vulture. By examining the arrangement of the bunkers, it is obvious that the most desirable angle into the green is from the left side - which used to necessitate flirting with the creek. Now, it is necessary to hit a tee shot down the right-center and cut a mid-iron into the green, eliminating the strategy of the hole. We’ll get that fixed with a chainsaw and gang mower.

The 15th is junk. Crap. A brainless faux pas on the same order of #13 at SFGC or #12 at GCGC. The green has been modified once and what was a beautifully intimate corner of the property was defaced in 1997 with a tee completely out of proportion with the surrounds and a putting surface with rolls and folds that not only do not tie-in properly to the green complex, but look like they were beamed in from Scottsdale. But let’s not lay this at the feet of Weiskopf, he was taking orders from one of our members who desperately needs to either get a life or develop some aesthetic sensibilities.

On #17, contrary to popular conception, tee shots do not roll from the left side all the way down the hill any more than lipped-out putts on the 18th totter 30 feet to the front of the green. Those are in extraordinary conditions - you did not see it happen during the Tour Championship, did you? As it is, the hole would be better modified into a long par four with the elimination of the left hand bunkers to allow a run-up shot (just opinion mind you) similar to a reverse-Redan strategy. Oneof the weaknesses of the course is that in championship play, long hitter finish with three straight short-irons. Par 35-35-70 would actually flow rather well.      

#18 green was rebuilt and although at the time it was completed I thought it was okay, it just does not have enough contour and pitch to it. I’ve seen pictures of it many years ago and it was about as flat as we see it today, but the Lake is a product of evolution and not specific pedigree. The hole was more interesting with a steep green and if the USGA thinks it is too steep then we can temporarily flatten it for the next Open. Otherwise, I liked it better when hitting the green was only half the battle.

But all of this can be rectified fairly easily. The bare bones of a superb routing and endlessly interesting topography are there - and that is perhaps the most important commodity of all.

All things considered, with its twists and turns as it tumbles and writhes through the trees, the Lake never bores me even after 27 years. In the end, that might be the truest measure of a golf course and one that I am awfully proud to call home.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2002, 12:06:23 AM »
Well done Gib: although I don't know the golf course, you've provided a good summary about what makes it a great course.

You've risen above the agression and emotive responses present on the other thread.  There needs to be less agression and more thoughtful posts on GCA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2002, 04:16:18 AM »
Gib
I'm not quite sure why it is not possible to compare courses of differing character, doesn't Golf, GD, GolfWeek do this with every ranking?  I think there is general consensous that Olympic is a great test of golf. I believe its greatest attribute is its interesting terrain. Unfortunately one of its greatest weaknesses is the heaviness of the air and its moist climate which sometimes works against greatest strength. When I think of a top 10 or top 20 course, they normally have great variety and they also have some unique attribute, usually in the form of hazards which seperate it from the rest. Other than the interesting ground, the most constant hazard at Olympic are the trees - not at the top of my most preferred hazards. Wouldn't the course benefit from the trees being pushed way back, widening the course and bringing even more of the interesting contours into play? There also seems to be a repetative nature to the bunkering sceme - although that repative sceme does allow for an opening in the middle front.  I love #3, but the other par-3s are not the courses greatest strength, which I do not believe needed to be the case. The other common characteristic of the elite courses is a unique setting and Olympic takes full advantage its wonderful setting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2002, 05:42:49 AM »
Nice summary Gib!  Question to you and Tom about the trees.  Tom are you sure they are the primary hazard?  Wouldn't you also have to say the hillside nature of the course and all the sidehill lies are a major factor.  You have to work the ball into these slopes to play the course well.  Just a thought!  Of course the trees are a major factor but the hills are as well.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2002, 06:51:11 AM »
Mark
Re-read my comments. I said the courses greatest attribute was its interesting terrain. And I said other than the interesting ground, the most constant hazard at Olympic are the trees.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2002, 08:14:28 AM »
Well done
Gib.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2002, 08:18:50 AM »
Tom,
My fault.  Too early in the morning when I read that one.  We're in agreement.  Bottomline, we can debate the quality of the golf architecture but I love "the golf course" and everything about it (tangible and intangible).  It's a wonderful place to play at least in the times I've been there.  

By the way, I do think you can compare "all" golf courses to one another.  If you get too analytical about it, you might have problems, but you can compare them.  Aren't there some basic atributes to every design?  At the end of the day, personal preference may be the deciding factor why you like one over the other but so be it.  That doesn't make your conclusion wrong!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2002, 09:33:57 AM »
I like 17 the way it played in the most recent Open - seemed like a real half par kind of a hole. I guess most people only like half pars when they're birdie holes rather than bogey holes.

Thanks for the writeup - still waiting for the full "My Home Course" treatment. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2002, 11:17:33 AM »
Gib,

Great post.  It is funny in a way that you saw so many more flaws than I did.  The tree on #5 must go but beyond that, I did not see the other problems as glaring as you did.

Tom,

How long ago did you play Olympic?  I did not feel any claustrophobia about trees at all.  I cannot imagine them taking the trees back further, only thinning them out.  When a person from the Midwest goes out to golf in mid winter and only hits one tree, they are not a problem.

My conclusions:  1. I cannot think of another course in America that I would rather play twice a week.  2. This may be the finest member course ever built.  3. Golf Digest should require mandatory drug testing for every one of its raters who put Oakland Hills ahead of Olympic (Oakland finished 10th and Olympic 11th).  4. This course probably belongs between 10 - 15 in the national rankings.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2002, 11:19:19 AM »
Nicely done Gib.  :) For those who mentioned the trees, I just didn't find the course to be as claustrophobic as I thought I would. I find Spyglass to be more of a bowling alley when it comes to trees compared to Olympic. The ability to work the ball into the right landing areas off the tee I found to be the most demanding part (for someone who is as wayward off the tee as me). I was also struck by how small the greens are which I didn't notice during the 98 Open. Not my favorite course, but a great test of golf without a doubt.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2002, 11:21:07 AM »
As a set, Olmypic's par fives (1, 16, and 17) are good but not great, though I do really like 16 a lot.

As a set, Olmypic's par threes (3,8  ??? , 13, and 15) are good but not great.

As a set, Olmypic's par fours are very good without being great.

Thus, I don't consider Olmypic a great course BUT I would be delighted to find out/learn that I had missed a bunch there on my two trips around the course.

However, nothing in these two Olmypic threads tells me any different. As Steve points out in the original thread,  details as to why it is great seem in short supply.

As George P. says, My Home Course was created so that a subtle course like Olympic could be carefully studied with the assistance of plenty of photo back-up detailing specific points. Thus, people who have never played it or people who will only play it a few times could gain a better appreciation of what makes it special.

Hopefully, someone will eventually contribute a meaningful analysis of this course (and I hope Shivas will do the same for Medinah one day). Until then, comments like Gib's that the "casual observer cannot begin to grasp all the subtle little humps hollows and strategies" shed little light on the subject.

Cheers,




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2002, 12:03:25 PM »
Ran,
Not sure what you are looking for, how much detail do you want?  I haven’t played it enough to do that and it sounds like you haven’t either.  

In my other posts to Steve that he responded so rudely too (before finally not even responding back with own analysis) here is a summary of some of what I said:  

1)      Other than the location of the first tee box  :-/, a graceful start that can bring your guard down and set your expectations high.    
2)      Precision tee shots to landing areas that require you to work (draw or fade) the golf ball to have the best angles into the smallish greensites.
3)      Few level lies in the fairways and a variety of different length approaches required into the greens.
4)      Nice mix on the par threes that provide a sound test of golf including a rare uphill par three that leads back to the clubhouse.  I like the size of the green and the position of the front bunker.  Being set back a bit from the green, that bunker is very deceiving and is the primary defense of the golf hole.  With the wind and the hill it is very difficult to guage where to land the ball.
5)      Most of the greens are receptive to run up shots, however, some must be attacked in the air.  Every second shot is demanding and needs your attention.  Short side yourself and up and downs are very difficult.
6)      Putting is a challenge as the greens are well contoured and the hilling terrain adds a further complexity.  Reading these greens takes lots of skill and experience.
7)      Though extra distance is always an advantage, the power golfer has no huge edge over the skilled shorter hitter.  
8)      There are no gimmicks, the course is right in front of you.  Only one fairway bunker, how hard can it be?  
9)      The whole feel of the place is special.  Plus I love the trees and enjoy the challenge of being forced to hit a high cut or a low running draw if faced with such an option.  
10)      To me a golf course is more than just the architecture.  

Olympic no doubt has some weaknesses when it comes to pure design attributes.  In fact, Lehigh is better and judging from your evaluation of Olympic’s “golf holes” I would have to say you rate Lehigh much higher!  Think about it, architecturally Lehigh is a sounder design.  Lehigh’s greens are superior, its par threes are one of best sets you’ll find, the par fours especially the short ones are superb and the par fives are inspiring and present a challenge and a variety of shot options to any level golfer!  So which course is better?  I love Lehigh, but Olympic wins hands down.  Now how does that make sense?  What do you think?
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2002, 12:20:52 PM »
Ran,

What about #1 is not great.  #1 should be in the textbook as a perfect starting hole.  The very first hole asks you to challenge yourself with asking what is your goal for the round?  Assuming you keep the ball out of trouble on your tee shot, you are left with one of the best second shots on the course.  If your goal is to make pars, you can hit a mid iron and lay back to a fairly wide landing area at 135 yards and fire an 8-Iron, 9-Iron, or PW to a must hit green and make par.  If your goal is to make birdies, then you can challenge one of the best ten cross-bunkers in North America and go for it.  If you succeed in carrying the bunker, than the ball will slope downhill towards the green leaving you a very short chip to the putting surface and a legitimate shot at four.  If you fail to carry the bunker (As I did) than you have an 85 yard sand shot (Maybe the hardest shot in golf) to an unrelentingly small green with the cross-bunker lip to contend with.  Hello bogey or worse and goodbye to the second easiest (#17 being first) scoring opportunity on the golf course.  I absolutely feel that #1 is great.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Gib_Papazian

Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2002, 12:29:44 PM »
Alright oh pithy one. Evidently, my lyrical prose has failed to communicate the spiritual texture of the Lake Course.

The world can fairly be divided into poets and scientists, who must reduce every analysis to a series of measurments even if they are based on subjective assumptions.  

Would you care to quantify exactly the difference between good and great?

I'd also be interested in the perspective of your esteemed brother.

One point I did not mention is the conditioning challenge we face. Largely it is a function of educating the membership. Huckster (on the other thread) is right that there are times when the golf course plays wet and long - despite the tree trimming of the last few years.

The answer lies in the poa variety of grass we use (are stuck with). It has always been my understanding that to keep the poa from turning brown, deep watering was necessary to encourage root growth - given the shallow depth of the grass.

So, our former Super - a fine man who served the club for 25 years - was fearful of incurring the wrath of the know nothings and opted to play it  safe.  This is hardly surprising, but the course was often far too wet, negating many of the aforementioned features  that require firm conditions to play correctly.

Therefore, I can understand that people come away with differing impressions of the Lake Course - largely dependent on which day they play it.

So perhaps these strategies I refer to are occasionally obscured by conditioning issues. Generally, Fall is the best time because the course plays as intended nearly every day.

I remain hopeful that our new Green Chairman will have wherewithal to convince the masses that brown is not only good, but desirable. It continues to astound me why the average clubmember would rather play a wet green course than a dry one. Such are the mysteries of our game.

If I have the time, I'll finally pen a My Home Course piece, although I still have no idea how to post photos on the site.  Calling Emperoro Naccarato, white courtesy telephone please!

But Ran - regardless of whether I  conjure up a dry analytical recitation - there is no substitute for up close and personal. You have threatened to reappear in Nutville for quite some time.

As to the Ocean and  Cliff Courses, that will have to  wait for  another day.              
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2002, 12:55:00 PM »
Mark,

I don't see why you say Olympic wins "hands down." Yes, all the magazines and books say that (as do the U.S. Opens) but so what? For instance, I have little Maidstone miles ahead of most US Open courses, including Olympic, because of its greater variety.

Your points #2, 3 , 4, 5, 6, 7, and 9 are equally applicable to Lehigh as to Olympic. Accordingly, why hesitate in saying the two are of comparable quality? Yes, Olmypic's best holes (3, 16, and 18) are better than Lehigh's best but Lehigh's least distinguished (6 and 9) beat Olmypic's least distinguished (8 and 17).

Both Lehigh and Olympic are very good courses in my book.

Cheers,



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2002, 01:38:55 PM »
David, I like the 1st plenty as a stand-alone hole and I think its only failing is in the context of a 1st hole - having a reachable par five simply isn't conducive to a smooth start, especially at a busy club.

Gib, Anyone who loves Kapalua Plantation as much as you do can't be all wrong  ;) and I very much look forward to our game there. Remember: I prefer Olympic over SFGC, so I'm one of the good guys  ;D

One question: are there many tight lies around Olympic's greens or are you generally in a bunker or rough if you miss the greens? I don't recall many "collection areas" but it's been 8-9 years since I was there last.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2002, 01:45:32 PM »
David
Over twenty years ago, how do you compare the course of that time with today? What do you mean there is no other courses in America you would rather play twice a week? How about three times a week?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2002, 03:09:45 PM »
Ran,
Everyone always underestimates the quality of their home course  ;)  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2002, 04:36:42 PM »
I'll chime in with some thoughts with hopefully an unbiased view.  First, I was up at the club today and can tell everyone that the staff is flattered for the lack of a better term at some of the praise heaped on them on the last thread.  Thanks to everyone who noticed the superb staff at the OC.

My view on the course is a little different.  I think the front nine at Olympic is world class.  With that said, I am usually spent after the first nine both emotionally and physically.  Olympic for its little 6,800 yards can really beat you up.  A number of people think that 9 to 12 are not very good par 4's.  I disagree, in fact looking at all 4 they are different and architectually very good holes.  They may be monotonous compared to the greatness of 2 through 8 but again I think most people are toast by the time they get to the tee of #9.

My beef with the Lake are the par 3's.  #3 is world class and then really nothing else exciting.  #8 is a wedge and 13 & 15 (is it just me) are exactly the same holes.  They both play in the same direction, they are both slightly uphill, you have to fly a trap to reach the green and depending on the tee placement can play the same yardage.

The last 3 holes are great fininshing holes and I agree with someone else that they should just leave 17 as a par5 and forget about it.

I have always wondered if Olympic would be a top 10 course if Hogan, Palmer, Watson and Payne Stewart would have won the US Opens they were leading?   Somehow the Jack Flecks and Scott Simpsons tend to diminish the greatness of the course.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2002, 05:03:08 PM »
Mark Fine -

We're hoping everyone will follow your lead & post as thorough as "My Home Course" piece as yours on Lehigh.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2002, 05:16:57 PM »

Quote
I agree with someone else that they should just leave 17 as a par5 and forget about it.

Joel, what do you think of the idea of changing 17 to a par 4?  Do you agree that as a par 5 it's neither here nor there, with nothing special required either off the tee or with the second shot?  Unlike the first hole for example.

Of course for the pro's the third shot (when played as a par 5) is a punch wedge or a flip with an L wedge...nothing special for those guys either.

16 demands precision with all three shots, while 17 lets you rest until you get on the green.  Kind of a let-down.

The most interesting thing about 17 from the perspective of visitors is looking at the hole as a par 4 from the Open tees and shaking their heads in amazement that the pros can get there.  But once you've walked past those tees there isn't much of interest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Gib_Papazian

Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2002, 06:26:30 PM »
Kevin, Joel, Ran et al:

Let's not forget that the Lake is a product of evolution. For some reason, we hold the exisiting features on the course as somehow sacrosanct as if C.B. or Mackenzie had built them with their bare hands.

Poppycock. The fairway bunker on the 6th - one pointed to with pride as being the only on the course - is out of play for most long hitters. For chumps like me it waits like a jackal licking its chops, but not for real players. Why not either extend it or move it back?

If the 17th hole is to remain a par 5, what law states we are forbidden to install a fairway bunker to give strategic interest to the 2nd shot?

A good start might be getting rid of those silly mounds on #7 and either planting a tree as we had when I was a kid or putting a fairway bunker in to give tee shots something to think about. Once that is done, this bizarre belief we are limited to a single fairway bunker will go away.

Are these criticisms? Yes! But I believe with the right guy making a tweak here or there, our beloved Lake can dive back into the top 10 on every single list and drop anchor as a permanent fixture.

Should this matter? Not to me. But I want the golf course as good as it can be - and that is all that matters unless you are tending to a museum piece like NGLA.

The big conundrum is finding a guy who intimately understands the course and its unique style willing to make slow and thoughtful changes over the next few years.

I have an idea or two who that might be. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2002, 09:34:21 PM »
Gib:
Its my understanding that Jones put in the bunker on #6 and I can tell you that I have never been in that bunker.  I would be for filling it in since its more of a novelty than anything else.

Kevin:
I don't think the membership has ever given any consideration to making 17 a par 4. The green is simply to small to burn long irons into it and for the membership they would have to build a new tee way forward.  Its simply USGA hog wash which adds to the diminsment of the course.

Ran:
I'll address your question about the collection areas of Olympic because I believe its one of the great attributes of the course.   When you miss a green at Olympic, the ball can roll into many different areas, in many cases down hill and/or collection areas.  As I tried to express on another thread, the Tour Championship played the course with no rough and the Open of course with extreme rough.  The winning scores are basically the same (around par give or take a few shots) which demonstrates the same difficulty getting it up and down from collection areas as the same as USGA long hair.   I believe it was in some small part that after the 98 Open the USGA tried (successfully) to set up Pinehurst in 99 with limited rough.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Part II
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2002, 10:03:55 PM »
Joel,

What I had in mind for 17 wasn't simply moving up the tees and keeping the current green site.  Rather, I see 500+ yards of available space to make a real par 4, not the Frankenstein 4 in place during the Open.  That means a completely new approach to the hole.

But I wouldn't even make a suggestion like this if the current hole were a good par 5.  But in my opinion it's not.  And barring something in the landing area to challenge or require some strategy for the second shot (and perhaps in turn require the drive to be anything but a straight ahead (or draw, or fade, or pull, or push...it doesn't matter) blast), the hole currently is something worse for a closing hole...it's boring.  

Interesting to consider something like a bunker as Gib suggests, but it wouldn't be necessary of 17 had some layout maybe inspired by the 4th, an uphill semi-blind shot to an interesting green.  Or if the hole is the right distance, a reverse Redan as Gib suggests. Just thinking out loud.

The above is a perhaps a radical notion, but I'd be curious to hear your opinion about what is good about the current hole as it plays for the members.  In my mind, what is good is that it is straightforward and it has a challenging green.  And it is probably popular because it is an easy par. But those attributes aren't things that you can really hang your hat on when you are talking about holes at the highest levels, especially among the final holes of a course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson