Long Cove #5

[Greg Tallman]

I know this has been discussed within another thread about the entire course but thsi is just about the one hole.

Some consider this a good hole and some even say great architecture.

So my question is...

Can i take any boring piece of ground and make a wonderful 330 yard golf hole simply by placing 25-30 foot high between 250 and 300 blocking access and view of the green from the tee and the approach.

I know the hole is more than the mounds... wait, is it really? Pretty boring green, a very strange setup of a blind shot with water behind. Is that quirk or just ridiculous?

[jeffwarne]

I know this has been discussed within another thread about the entire course but thsi is just about the one hole.

Some consider this a good hole and some even say great architecture.

So my question is...

Can i take any boring piece of ground and make a wonderful 330 yard golf hole simply by placing 25-30 foot high between 250 and 300 blocking access and view of the green from the tee and the approach.

I know the hole is more than the mounds... wait, is it really? Pretty boring green, a very strange setup of a blind shot with water behind. Is that quirk or just ridiculous?

yes you can
What's boring about the ground on #5 at LC?

[Greg Tallman]

I know this has been discussed within another thread about the entire course but thsi is just about the one hole.

Some consider this a good hole and some even say great architecture.

So my question is...

Can i take any boring piece of ground and make a wonderful 330 yard golf hole simply by placing 25-30 foot high between 250 and 300 blocking access and view of the green from the tee and the approach.

I know the hole is more than the mounds... wait, is it really? Pretty boring green, a very strange setup of a blind shot with water behind. Is that quirk or just ridiculous?

yes you can
What's boring about the ground on #5 at LC?

Other than the fact it was a flat wooded swamp?

[jeffwarne]

I know this has been discussed within another thread about the entire course but thsi is just about the one hole.

Some consider this a good hole and some even say great architecture.

So my question is...

Can i take any boring piece of ground and make a wonderful 330 yard golf hole simply by placing 25-30 foot high between 250 and 300 blocking access and view of the green from the tee and the approach.

I know the hole is more than the mounds... wait, is it really? Pretty boring green, a very strange setup of a blind shot with water behind. Is that quirk or just ridiculous?

yes you can
What's boring about the ground on #5 at LC?

Other than the fact it was a flat wooded swamp?

cool hole-plenty of cool undulating holes there shaped out of that swamp
it'd be interesting to see how the long ballers play 5 now

[Anthony Gray]

  Never played it,but sounds like I would like it.Pete Dye makes the most out of nothing.

  Anthony

[Anthony_Nysse]

Well, lets be clear-LCC was not built in a swamp. There are an extensive numbers of lagoons, flanked by 80 foot tall pines that Mr. Dye weaved LCC though.
  Now, #5 is 321yds from the back tees. The last spring I was there, (2007) some of the touring pros were landing their drives on the green when they were in town for the Heritage tournament.
  I beleive that #5 is SO MUCH more than just a short par 4 with 15-20 foot mounds. (Which Mr. Dye has used at #5 at Old March and #12 at TPC, to name a few.) The closer the golfer hugs the water, the much better angle they will have into the green. In fact, if your tee shot remains in the intermediate cut or the very edge of the fairway, you will have a complete view of the green. The green itself is flanked by 6 bunkers, 5 of which are placed into the mounds right of the green.

[PThomas]

sure you can create blind holes like that...but who else if anyone does that?? i thought of one:  16 at Old Mac.

5th at Long Cove worked for me...as did the rest of the course, a very good design i thought

[Ron Farris]

I was on the construction crew at Long Cove and I remember the day when PB Dye rough shaped the green complex at #5.
At the end of the day we all gathered back at the maintenance facility.  PB came rushing in with more than his usual exciteable enthusiasm, practically gleeming like a little kid.  I dont remember his exact words, but he wanted us to run out there and rake down the bunkers as the green complex or hole was one of the coolest things since they started slicing bread.  His excitement was overwhelming, but nobody wanted to go out after working hours and hand rake anything.  It may have been Scott Pool, I can't remember, but a couple of us did go out to $5 just to see what he had created.  Remember this hole was built in the early 80's and few people were doing this type of work.  I played the hole the first year it opened, prior to all the technical advances in clubs, shafts, and balls.  Honestly, as I reflect back it turned out to be a rather mundane play as I couldn't even think about going for the green.  Lay up, pop it over the hill to the green and hope you two put. 

The enthusiasm of PB has been stuck in my head for many years and when I think of Long Cove I think of this hole.  Of course there are a few other memorable events that happened at LC as it was my first golf course construction experience.  I am sure I have a picture of the hole during construction, but I am in China, so I will not be able to post the photo here. Crap.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tony N.,

You know the hole better than me (the only tme I've seen it was while playing Long Cove with you)...

What percentage of club members do you think play blind over the hill/mound to the green, at #5, every round? I'm thinking it's a really high percentage. It seems to me that it's extremely difficult for a majority of golfers to place a tee shot down the left margin of the fairway, next to the lagoon, to get a look at this green.

Theoretically, it's a cool concept (and a memorable hole). But, does it work? (I only have a hunch... that's why I ask.) 

[Tom_Doak]

Ron,

I remember that same day as distinctly as you do.  It gave me the impression that PB had come up with the hole entirely on his own ... Until a month later when Bobby Weed showed me Pete's chicken scratch sketch of what he wanted to build.

I also agree with Tony that that version of the hole is much superior to some of the copy cat versions he did later ... I have seen the same hole at Mission Hills Dinah Shore course, Firethorn, Old Marsh etc and none of them have the nuances of the 5th at Long Cove.  I believe the inspiration for it was #14 at North Berwick, that's what Pete told me.

[Greg Tallman]

Well, lets be clear-LCC was not built in a swamp. There are an extensive numbers of lagoons, flanked by 80 foot tall pines that Mr. Dye weaved LCC though.
  Now, #5 is 321yds from the back tees. The last spring I was there, (2007) some of the touring pros were landing their drives on the green when they were in town for the Heritage tournament.
  I beleive that #5 is SO MUCH more than just a short par 4 with 15-20 foot mounds. (Which Mr. Dye has used at #5 at Old March and #12 at TPC, to name a few.) The closer the golfer hugs the water, the much better angle they will have into the green. In fact, if your tee shot remains in the intermediate cut or the very edge of the fairway, you will have a complete view of the green. The green itself is flanked by 6 bunkers, 5 of which are placed into the mounds right of the green.

Anthony, OK on the orginal form of the land... just pointing out that nothing about the terrain said "here is a really cool golf hole".

Are you suggesting that Dye built a hole where the optimal placement of one's tee ball is in the rough?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jeff,
  In my time of watching members, and even myself playing the hole, 99% of the golfers just hit it to the middle of the fairway or it's whereabouts. It's the safe shot and ensure a dry tee shot, though, TO ME, a higher chance of the approach landing in the water or a pot bunker.

 Greg,
  I never thought of Mr. Dye intending for the tee shot to actually be in the rough, but who knows. I do know that the roughs at LCC used to be centipede until 1990ish and with the way bermudagrass grows, I'd suspect that the orginal fairway line may have moved. I know during my time there, Head Pro, Bob Patton, showed me pictures of the holes from the early 1990's and where the fairways lines were. We spent consierable time trying to recapture these lines and many had crept away from the waste areas, away from bunkers and had more contours than typical Dye courses. Over the last few years, the club and current Superintendent have done a very good job maintaining Mr. Dyes visions and intentions with tree removal and preservation, along with renovation of the waste areas in keeping with the Dye look.

[Ed Oden]

I thought I would add a few pictures to this discussion.

Here is the long range view from the tee which shows the entirety of the hole and the water hazard running the length of the left side…


A short range shot from the tee…


And a close-up of the view of the green from the tee…


As Tony mentions, the left side offers the best view and angle of approach…


But that view closes quickly as even from the left center of the fairway you can only catch a glimpse of the top of the flag…


And everything from the center of the fairway to the right is totally obscured…


A look at the green from on top of the mounds…


And the view from behind looking back toward the tee…


According to Google Earth, it’s only 280 yards as the crow flies from the back tee to the middle of the green.  So it’s certainly reachable by big hitters.  But I can’t see why anyone would take the risk other than on a dare.  And the aggressive line Tony mentions down the left side involves hitting about a 10 yard wide strip of fairway that slopes toward the water hazard.  So I’m skeptical that many golfers find this area except by mistake.  I suspect that Jeff is right that almost all the members play this hole the same way every time (i.e., 200 yard shot to the fat of the fairway, totally blind short iron to the green and hope for the best).  It seems to me the best short par 4s are ripe with options and risk/reward.  At the end of the day, I don’t see much of either here.  So you are left with the novelty of the blind approach.  Is that enough or does the appeal diminish over time?

[Alex Miller]

Ed,

I've never played LCC, but 280 to the center of the green sounds like the perfect number to tempt players playing from the back tees to go for the green. Also, does the fairway go continuously to the green or is it cut off? Is there bailout room for those trying to drive the green?

[Ed Oden]

Alex, the fairway does not run continuously to the green.  It is cut off by the mounds, rough and pot bunkers.  There is no bailout area.  Here is a Google Earth image of the hole...

[Matt Kardash]

Such a fun hole. Look at that view from the tee, it is just begging the brave golfer to drive that green. I think this is a hole that has probably gotten even better with with 300 yard drive drives being commonplace.
And I do think that driving the green is a real option because an 80 yard blind approach is no guarantee birdie.

[Sam Morrow]

PB Dye did something similar on the 7th hole at Crimson Creek outside OKC. 7 Is a short par 4 (326ish?) that plays uphill to a tiny green. About 80 yards short there is a great big mound, it looks like a pimple of a boob or whatever you wanna call it but it's a cool little feature, it takes an otherwise uninspiring hole and makes you think. The entire course is very solid and very affordable.

[jeffwarne]

Tony N.,

You know the hole better than me (the only tme I've seen it was while playing Long Cove with you)...

What percentage of club members do you think play blind over the hill/mound to the green, at #5, every round? I'm thinking it's a really high percentage. It seems to me that it's extremely difficult for a majority of golfers to place a tee shot down the left margin of the fairway, next to the lagoon, to get a look at this green.

Theoretically, it's a cool concept (and a memorable hole). But, does it work? (I only have a hunch... that's why I ask.) 

Jeff,
I worked there for three years in the late 80'.early nineties.
never considered going for the green.
A great hole as you rell can't get it close unless you drive it down the left where you can see the pin, and more importantly, hold the green. A shot form the center or the right is hitting into the slightly angled green downhill.
i used to hit a three iron left center and end up using the mound so clearly depicted in ed's pictues-if I missed it right I ahd a much tougher shot-the ground on the left kept most balls out of the water unless they were hooking pretty hard.
great hole at a time when there were so few being built.

[Tim Gavrich]

I've never played the hole but perhaps it's less about the decision of whether to go for the green or not and more about the fact that you can see the pin from the tee but not from the fairway.  So then, perhaps the hole is all about making forcing the player to visualize the hole location in order to hit the approach shot.  One thing I'm a fan of is the fact that you can't play it with a rangefinder!

[Alex Miller]

How much of the concept of the hole was P.B.'s? I ask because Carlton Oaks, which is a Perry Dye design has a hole with VERY similar feature: coincidentally also the 5th. The line to the center of the green is 300 yards, so a little longer than the Long Cove hole.




It plays in a similar way from what I can tell, with the small bunker between fairway and green raised up (some would call it a volcano bunker). The green is also visible from the tee and left extreme of the fairway with the approach blind from the middle of the fairway.

Just thought I 'd point out the similarity (repetition?) in the design.

[Jim Nugent]

Going on the pictures, the hole looks to me like a kind of hybrid alps hole.  Blind second shot over mounds/hills to a well-protected green.  Mounds give the green a bit of punchbowl-like quality. 

Looks like plenty of options, too.  I bet seeing the green from the tee plays on the mind of long-ball hitters.  What is the green itself like?     

Great pictures, Ed. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jim,
  Anything that lands on the right of the green will release left, anything that lands long has the potential to come back to the middle. Most shots end up middle or left, closer to the water.

[Tom_Doak]

Alex Miller:

The concept was Pete's.  P.B. gave us all the impression at the time that it was his idea, but before I left the job, Bobby Weed showed me Pete's original sketches of the concept for each hole, done on a legal pad.  He had the fifth hole drawn pretty close to what we built.

There are plenty of versions of this hole built afterward, because Pete really liked how it turned out.  Pete built a version at Old Marsh and Firethorn (where Perry was involved for a while) and the Dinah Shore course at Mission Hills, among other places.

[Ed Oden]

I've never played the hole but perhaps it's less about the decision of whether to go for the green or not and more about the fact that you can see the pin from the tee but not from the fairway.  So then, perhaps the hole is all about making forcing the player to visualize the hole location in order to hit the approach shot.  One thing I'm a fan of is the fact that you can't play it with a rangefinder!

Tim, I started a thread a few months back on the 15th hole at Dormie, which has similar qualities (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46385.0.html).  I thought this design was fairly unique, but the responses quickly made clear that I just haven't played enough Dye courses.