[Andy Troeger]

JNC,
The reason you're getting some pushback lately is that you're making very strongly worded general statements about architects work, and then admittedly don't have the experience to back up the strength of the statements. If your posts were worded to cover the courses you've played instead of generalizing about an architect's body of work I think you'd receive less pushback.

I agree with you regarding not seeking out Hills' courses--if you don't like the two you've played don't seek out more. I've only played a few Rees Jones' original designs and I don't particularly seek out more of them because I wasn't impressed with the ones I played. However, I wouldn't necessarily make broad statements about his work, even if my internal hunch is that the trends I've spotted in a few courses probably apply to most of the others as well. I've played nine Hills' courses with a few in the "good" range overall, a few mediocre, and a few worse than that!

[Tim Leahy]

I really liked The Golf Club at Cedar Creek in Aiken, GA.  It felt like he grasped the area there and was very playable.
However, I really disliked Halfmoon Bay, Cross Creek and Black Gold.
Played Halfmoon once and was bored to tears and have never been back, Cross Creek was full of layup shots and gimmicks, and Black Gold was just not fun or interesting.

[Eric Smith]

I think I have played 7 Hills courses and 5 of them I like quite a bit.  The disappointments being Legacy in Las Vegas and Coosaw Creek in Charleston.

Here's one close to me, River Islands just outside of Knoxville, TN. I know John Stiles has played it...anyone else been? I'm pretty sure Hills was hired for this project based on the original owner's appreciation for the two courses he did on Hilton Head. It's routed over land next to a river, and its really cool because the old farm land that it is on is where the river bends back and forth and there are some actual islands in the stream that you play across to.  I haven't been over there in several years, but it is a solid public golf course and a good all around value.

[James Boon]

This is interesting to see as I'm almost done reading "Driving the Green: The Making of a Golf Course" by John Strawn. If you're interested in Hills and his work at all it's a neat look into his mindset and the way he works...both good and bad.

Pat,

I have that book and for some damn reason could never get into it. I'll take another look, thanks.

Eric,

I picked up a copy of "Driving the Green" only recently on a trip to Hay on Wye (a town on the Welsh border known for its vast amount of second hand book shops). I'm reading it at the moment, and at times its interesting but I'm finding it mostly hard going, but I shall soldier on! To be honest, I'd never heard of Art Hills and in fact for a while I wasn't sure if the book was fictional or not and it was only on a google search for Ironhorse that I found the course, its architect and the story to be factual 

I've never played any of his courses, but I've just got to the bit about Seville, which I take it is the Dunes GC? Well I haven't played Pine Valley either, but I dont see anything that looks like Pine Valley (something mentioned in the book and the clubs website) from the pics Mike W links to?

Cheers,

James

[Matt_Ward]

Eric:

How long is the hole pictured that plunges downhill ?

Interesting green design.

[Eric Smith]

Eric:

How long is the hole pictured that plunges downhill ?

Interesting green design.

Matt,

This is the 2nd hole -

401 blue tees
350 white tees

Most try to play their tee shot out to around the 150 marker just before the fairway drops downhill, so a lot of 3 or 4 woods here. If you do play driver over the hill, as you can see, the fairway narrows and with the zoysia grass, you may find yourself with a hanging downhill lie. Still, with the shallow nature of this green in mind, the prospect of hitting a sand wedge from down around 75 - 100 yards can be enough incentive to take the risk from the tee as opposed to having to play a 6 or 7 iron (or more, depending on how far you lay back) from up top.

[Billsteele]

Eric-River Islands has always intrigued me. Thanks for posting the pictures. A few years ago, we spent Spring Break in Pigeon Forge/Gatlinburg and I thought about making the drive over to play it. Unfortunately, the weather and family obligations conspired against that plan. How does River Islands compare to other public options in the Knoxville area?

[Eric Smith]

Eric-River Islands has always intrigued me. Thanks for posting the pictures. A few years ago, we spent Spring Break in Pigeon Forge/Gatlinburg and I thought about making the drive over to play it. Unfortunately, the weather and family obligations conspired against that plan. How does River Islands compare to other public options in the Knoxville area?

Bill,

It ranks right up there at the top, imo. Especially if you're where you stayed, over in Dollywood country!

There are other good options on the West / SW side of Knoxville, but they're not as close as you might hope they would be coming from Pigeon Forge.

[Richard Choi]

Point taken    However, it's not like I'm going to seek out his work after seeing those two golf courses.

I just don't get this attitude.

If you are a true fan of GCA, why would you write someone off after playing just 2 of his courses? It is not like AH is someone with small portfolio and 2 courses would be a significant number of examples. Why would you not want to play his other works, especially those that are regarded higher, if you really want to learn about GCA. People don't learn just from the best examples, they learn a lot from the worst as well (on what not to do).

Arthur Hills has built enough courses to have significant footprint in the world of golf over the past several decades and deserves a study. Even if his style is not something that you like, studying his courses will give you an insight on why he was such a popular architect during his time and what features made it so. And that knowledge can be used to compare perhaps other architect who built more interesting courses but who is not very popular to see what tweaking may have made his design more acceptable to general public (though it may not be something the architect wants).

Studying from the best is great. But breadth is just as important if you really want to understand architecture and its history.

[John_Conley]

I really wish we'd get a post here from Mike Dasher. He is/was a registered member...not sure if he survived the cut from 1,500 to 1,200.

Anyway, as I understood it, Arthur Hills' design company had at one point three business units under the parent.  This was invisible to the public, but Dasher did the work in Florida and the Southeast and others handled the other two areas of focus.  Art oversaw all this. 

There is a thread in the archives where people go on and on and on about their disdain for his work around Ohio and Michigan.  (Home turf for Hills as he lives in Toledo I think.)

The work Art Hills has with his name on it in Florida is quite good.  Not in a World Top 100 kind of way, but usually fun to play and better than average.  I was fortunate enough to sit in on a presentation from Dr. Hurdzan about the challenges when working in Florida because it is mostly flat.  Hills (and Dasher) handle this challenge better than most.

Basing a decision to avoid his courses after a sample of two is like seeing a Pirates split-squad game at the end of Spring Training and writing them off as unwatchable.  Yes, they do represent the team, but it would be a lot different if they had their ace throwing with their full roster in July.

The Dunes is terrific.  The first 54 holes at Bonita Bay are great fun.  (I think Creekside may be NLE, which would be a shame.)  The municipal Cypress Head in Port Orange is quite enjoyable.  Stoneybrooke West.  There are many more.  Most of the Hills stuff I've seen is in Florida, but I've also played others like Chaska Town that was used for the US Am a few years back.

[Matthew Petersen]

As best i can tell, I have played the following courses that are attributed to Hills (though as noted previously, many of them may be more the product of Keith Foster or someone else working in his name):

Heritage Highlands, Tucson, AZ
Quail Creek, Green Valley, AZ
Camelback Padre, Scottsdale, AZ
Stonecreek, Paradise Valley, AZ
Heritage Eagle Bend, Aurora, CO
Tamarron, Durango, CO
Legacy Ridge, Arvada, CO
Walking Stick, Pueblo, CO
The Legacy, Las Vegas, NV

Of those, only Tamarron and Walking Stick strike me as interesting sites, and I would also be inclined to qualify those as my favorite of the courses I've played. Many of the rest are fairly typical housing community courses and are pretty forgettable as so many of those courses tend to be (which I have come to believe is almost the point).

[Matt_Ward]

Eric:

There is a rock pictured at the bottom of hill -- can strong players get to that point and have a simple flip 60 degree wedge from there?

I like the greensite for what it provides.

[Eric Smith]

Matt,

Yes. I've seen plenty of tee shots end up down in front of the creek. It's a big poke for sure.  



Speaking of that creek...can I share a story here?

I actually worked there at River Islands on the maintenance crew, very briefly, after several years of working inside golf operations. I was gung ho on taking my golf course work experience to the 'next level' - to get the full breadth of what operating golf courses was all about. Well, I lasted 3 weeks out there. I loved the early mornings on that huge property along the river...who wouldn't? I'm telling you that place was magical. The smell of fresh cut grass, the occasional moo from the locals, this pristine river running all around the property and some really beautiful golf holes with perfect zoysia turf. I had my doubts though that it was my calling. Early one morning I was fly mowing the steep bank of the creek bed to the left of 2 green (shown in the picture), slipped on the wet grass and fell in with that damn mower. Scared the living $#*% out of me.

I needed to go...I thought, 'I'm not cut out for this job, so why am I out here trying to kill myself?' But I left with a few good takeaways - I learned a little more than I knew before about golf course maintenance, I got to cut holes!, and I learned to appreciate the heck out of everyone who does the job day in and day out. A few years later I became GM of a golf course 20 minutes from there.  It too was a great learning experience. Our superintendent and I worked really well together and I believe that the brief time I spent inside 'outside' at RI helped foster our relationship.

Final note - Not a day goes by, when I am push mowing the banks on the edge of my back yard, that I don't think about slipping and falling into that creek bed!

Sorry for the diversion...back to Hills.

[Tim Pitner]

Point taken    However, it's not like I'm going to seek out his work after seeing those two golf courses.

I just don't get this attitude.

If you are a true fan of GCA, why would you write someone off after playing just 2 of his courses? It is not like AH is someone with small portfolio and 2 courses would be a significant number of examples. Why would you not want to play his other works, especially those that are regarded higher, if you really want to learn about GCA. People don't learn just from the best examples, they learn a lot from the worst as well (on what not to do).

Richard,

Is it really so hard to understand?  If one likes to play golf on interesting (in a good way) courses and time is not unlimited, why seek out courses that one is unlikely to appreciate?  I've played 3 Hills courses that I know of (Legacy Ridge, Pipestone and Fiddler's Creek) and none of these has me clamoring for more.  I'm with Mr. Lyon--while I might not turn down an invitation to play a course just because Hills' name is attached to it, I have no intention of making a concerted effort to seek out his courses.  

Life is too short for bad golf courses, bad beer, etc.  

[JNC Lyon]

John Conley's post reminded me of something: I HAVE played another Hills course--one of the courses at the original Bonita Bay.  I thought it had a couple neat holes, and it was less artificial than the others as I recall.  However, it was very nondescript, and I cannot remember too many holes specifically.  Furthermore, it had wetlands on both sides of the fairway on nearly every hole.  This was partially an environmental constraint, I am sure.  However, that did not make it fun to play.

When I posted that I had only played two of his courses, I had this sneaking suspicion that I had played another one of his courses, but I could not remember playing any of his that I particularly liked.  After that Bonita Bay mention, I realized I was right suspect I had played another one of his layouts.  The fact that it was so unmemorable that I could not recall playing it says something bad about the course and his architecture in general.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

When you have a very small sample size don't you think you are making a major leap to presume that all future Hills courses will be the same as what you have already played ?

If I felt that way about Rees Jones -- another whipping boy on GCA -- then I would not have played his stellar work at Olde Kinderhook just outside Albany to name just one clear example. I don't presume that architects have track records and that the fingerprints from one layout automatically mean the same scenario time after after time.

The issue is not about saying people can't have opinions. They absolutely should. But comment on what you know from actually playing -- not merely by then painting with the widest of brushes and saying that all future work from such a handiwork is a waste of one's time.

JNC:

Glad you upped your portfolio of Hills courses played. 

I have played the layouts at Bonita Bay and concur with you there. There are a few holes of note but FL does present major challenges -- and are the same challenges to just about any architect who works there.

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

I don't regard 3 courses as that small of a sample size--I think I've only played 3 Doak courses, for example (but I don't play as often as you rater folks). 

Like I said, I'm not forswearing any and all Hills courses based on the 3 courses I've played, but I think I have some idea of Hills' style, tendencies, etc. and I'm not a big fan. 

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Sample size does matter.

Thing of any polls conducted -- under your reasoning someone can have an opinion without being somewhat in the ball park.

That's not fair to the architect involved.

Remember what I said -- I didn't say people can't have opinions of what they have played -- it's taking that very small sample size and then applying a permanent label to all other work -- current and future.

[J Sadowsky]

I rather liked Blue Mash here in the DC area - it's not as good as Laurel Hill, but it's not sitting on quite as good land, either.  Every Hills course that I recall playing were solid, though admittedly not spectacular, with the exception of UofM, which of course is just a Hills restoration of Mac and Max.  

When you market the way Hills does - spreading yourself a little thin (I assume not charging premium rates), and not necessarly demanding the best land, you are not going to get Ferraris.  But some of his Toyotas are quite good for what they are.  Blue Mash, for instance, is comparable or better with any of the DC upscale daily fees, and yet is cheaper than most.

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

I don't think I've done what you suggest.  I'm open to playing another Hills course if I've heard good things about it from trustworthy sources (e.g., Walking Stick), but I'm not planning my next vacation around one of his courses. 

Do you really think that one can't develop meaningful opinions about an architect's work after playing 2-3 courses?  If the argument is that an architect has churned out dozens or even hundreds of courses so 2-3 courses is too small of a sample, I'm not sure that speaks well of the architect.  And I'm not sure that's true.  For example, I think you can get a sense of Ross' work by playing only a few courses (assuming the courses are reasonably true to Ross).  Obviously, you learn more by playing more, but that doesn't mean you haven't learned anything after sampling a few courses. 

[Craig Van Egmond]

Ever so often the topic of Arthur Hills legacy comes up and its a mixed bag in my eyes. On the one hand he has built 200 some golf courses so he must be doing something right, people keeping hiring him.  On the other hand after 200 courses  I don't think he has any courses ranked on any top 100 lists and that is a pretty poor batting average in my book.

I have played a grand total of 10 Hills courses and while none of them were awful, none of them were great. He seems to build courses that are a solid 4-5 on the Doak scale. I would not return to any of those courses nor would I recommend them to others. His course Gaillardia Country Club in Oklahoma City was so well thought of that they brought in Tom Kite of all people to remodel/fix it.

So, I probably would not seek out any more Hills course if other opportunities were available.

At the end of the day, Arthur Hills has made a good living doing what he wants to do and that's hard to beat.

[J Sadowsky]

Ever so often the topic of Arthur Hills legacy comes up and its a mixed bag in my eyes. On the one hand he has built 200 some golf courses so he must be doing something right, people keeping hiring him.  On the other hand after 200 courses  I don't think he has any courses ranked on any top 100 lists and that is a pretty poor batting average in my book.

I have played a grand total of 10 Hills courses and while none of them were awful, none of them were great. He seems to build courses that are a solid 4-5 on the Doak scale. I would not return to any of those courses nor would I recommend them to others. His course Gaillardia Country Club in Oklahoma City was so well thought of that they brought in Tom Kite of all people to remodel/fix it.

So, I probably would not seek out any more Hills course if other opportunities were available.

Well, sure.  But a lot of people don't necessarily have regular access to Doak 6 or above courses.  Doak 5s include Royal Aberdeen , St. Andrews - New and Jubilee , Cavendish, Stoke Poges, Saunton, Worcester,  and East Lake.   As someone who (1) lives in an area (DC) that has very few 6s or above, and (2) has limited private club access in any event (and this not only describes myself but most people), I find a guy who can regularly produce 4s and 5s, and that a regular joe can get access to without getting very lucky or blowing a very large amount of money to be no small accomplishment as far as GCA goes.  This is particularly true when, as a certain other way off topic thread has shown, the current economy provides the challenge of making quality architecture affordable.

[Derek_Duncan]

Arthur Hills is the prototypical modern architect: lots of style, very little substance.  On the surface, his courses might like good for the undiscerning eye. However, when you look closer you realize that the courses are very manufactured, with tons of containment mounds, contrived bunkers, and un-natural greens. He also relies on water for defense on a lot of courses.

I've played two of his courses: Olde Atlanta and Fiddler's Creek (in Naples, FL).  Both courses share a few characteristics.  The first is the heavy use of containment mounding, which he uses to line both sides of every fairway.  This gives the course a very artificial feel.  It's as if you're experiencing a postmodern sculpture rather than a golf course.  

The second characteristic is that both courses are filled with vapid, unmemorable golf holes.  I can't recall more than five holes at Fiddler's Creek.  I can vaguely remember most of the holes at Olde Atlanta, but only because I've played it three times.  However, I could not describe specific features of any one of the 36 greensites on the two courses.  I can only remember that were generally very artificial.  

Third, each course features two or three holes that pretty much unplayable for most golfers.  These holes usually involve unreasonable carries over water.  These holes include the 11th and 18th at Olde Atlanta, and the 1st and 17th at Fiddler's Creek.

I'm guessing that Hills has done better courses than these two (or at least I would hope so).  However, which of his courses even match up to the work of architects like Doak, C & C, Lester George, George, Strantz, Mike Young, Mike Strantz, Brian Silva, or countless others? Hell, Fazio and RTJ II build much more interesting courses than Hills.

Jon,

First of all, you impugn a lot of talented modern designers with your opening sentence. I wonder if you can really make that case.

But Hills' courses aside, is there really such a sharp line dividing the new masters you mention at the end of your post and everybody else? And just out of curiosity, how many courses from, say, Mike Young or Lester George, can you speak authoritatively on the way you do about Olde Atlanta and Fiddlers Creek? Have you played any of their "bad" ones?

My reason for weighing in is not to defend Hills. I agree with what many have said here: his portfolio is way too thick to not have more courses seriously weighed against the county's best.

In my view, Hills was the product of the times he worked. A great bulk of the his courses were tied into real estate, and he might even have had some sort of partnership with certain large housing developers. It was a way to pay the bills, and probably a pretty good one. That's the route he chose and is open to criticism for it, but I think let's keep it in mind. As such, he wasn't holding out for great properties and many if not most of his courses were sharing land with a bunch of other things. He also built a lot of courses on unworthy golf sites.

I also think he and his team went through certain aesthetic phases. There's a period of work in the late '80's and early '90s where he seemed to minimally defending greens, often with just one (but sometimes more) circular bunkers. You see it a little at Olde Atlanta, and when you do come across it, it looks dated and really out of scale. When I think of Hills from this era I think of strange sizes and shapes. I also think there was a tendency toward narrowness that also doesn't mix well with today's tastes, although that could have had to do with sacrificing space to developers.

However, up until a year or so ago (and it may still be this way), his firm's recent work has tried to embrace contemporary design trends. A handful of projects were turned over to younger staffers like Brian Yoder and Chris Wilczynski, and you can see more room, variety and bravado in their designs (Wolfdancer in Texas and Sand Golf Club in Sweden come to mind).

For the record I've played 12 Hills courses.

[John_Conley]

John Conley's post reminded me of something: I HAVE played another Hills course--one of the courses at the original Bonita Bay.  I thought it had a couple neat holes, and it was less artificial than the others as I recall. 

After that Bonita Bay mention, I realized I was right suspect I had played another one of his layouts.  The fact that it was so unmemorable that I could not recall playing it says something bad about the course and his architecture in general.

Bonita Bay opened with 18 holes.  Then across the street they added Creekside.  Then 18 more were added, with nine holes tacked on to nine existing to form the Bay Island and Marsh 18s.

About 25 years ago the original 18 was ranked about #70 on the Golf Digest list.  A very strong amateur I know called it the greatest test of driving he'd ever seen.  Like Derek says, Hills' resume is the result of his era.

Your tagline says LOVES CLASSIC COURSES.  Art Hills did not usher in the new-classic era.  Neither did Robert Von Hagge, Robert Trent Jones, or Dick Wilson. Compared to his contemporaries, I've always considered the Hills name an endorsement in Florida.   

For an unusual body of work, I'd love your thoughts on the late Dave Harman.  If you played the wrong two from his portfolio, which certainly includes Magnolia Plantation, and wrote him off it would be a pity.

[Jud_T]

I kind of see both sides of this argument.  For the past few years, I've taken 1/4 of a regular time at Stonewall Orchard with some buddies.  They like it primarily since we have an early time on Sunday and the greens are some of the best conditioned of the area's publics.  I'm considering dropping out next season simply because the course is underwhelming, the 18th hole is one of the silliest closing par 5's you'll ever see, tough and pricey.  I've also played Bay Harbor and seen his renovation work at Ivanhoe and U of M, both of which, while not horrible,  could have been better.  It's a bit of a conundrum.  Given that I don't get to play as much as some here, why not seek out the best possible courses or return to those that I know and love?  Yet this leads to a sort of insularity.  I've liked or loved all the courses of X GCA so I seek out more of his designs, which I'm predisposed to like, and I'm happy in my ignorance...Yet there's that uncovered gem or new designer that I may overlook, or even that really special Art Hills track, that I miss due to my cocoon of a portfolio of courses.......

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