[Eric Smith]

I read this earlier: "Those of you sticking up for the work of Rees Jones, Arthur Hills, etc., need to wake up."

Call me Rip Van Winkle , but I have liked a couple of Hills' courses going on almost 20 years!

When the Arthur Hills Course at Palmetto Dunes opened on Hilton Head Island, it was completely different than most anything around. He put rumple in the fairways. He starts you off with a semi blind Dell-like green on the first hole.  He designed a golf course with a ton of fun shots to be played throughout. A good set of par 3's. Sure, there are plenty of water hazards, but, c'mon, it's at the beach in SC. The two finishing holes are memorable with 18 being a reachable par 5 with a blind green.

The resort already had two popular courses on site. The original RTJ course and a more testing George and Tom Fazio course. I think Hills delivered a very good and different product for his clients with this one.

I'll play the Hills any chance I get when down there. Here are a few of someone else's pics of the golf course.













from behind 18 green


Funny thing is his course down the road at Palmetto Hall may be even slightly better than this one...

Anyway, anyone else enjoy playing some of Hills' work? Which ones stand out to you as his best?

Cheers,

Eric

[Peter Pratt]

It's interesting: while he has no courses among my very favorite, Hills has designed a few in Michigan that I like quite a bit. Red Hawk in Tawas--not far from the Gailes--is truly a fun and interesting course, without any of the silly quirkiness that he's known for. I also like Shepherd's Hollow in Clarkston (nothwest of Detroit), which has some superb holes and a couple of silly ones.

[Jim Colton]

Eric,

  I hear Chicago Highlands may be his best work, although I haven't played enough of his courses to know if that's a 'world's tallest midget' statement or not.  I've probably played 5-6 of his courses, three of which have been extremely disappointing (Bay Harbor and Stonewall Orchard and Bolingbrook, two publics in Chicago).  Longaberger is probably up there in his upper echelon.

  Jim

[jeffwarne]

I used to love playing the Hills course when I worked at PD in the late 80's.
It was an innovative and interesting course with a lot of width in places,narrow in others.

Rees' Haig Point on Daufuskie was also a pro's favorite and a beautiful spot(although I wasn't enamored with the 20 hole thing)
who knew I'd spend 16 years working at two of his best courses

[PCCraig]

This is interesting to see as I'm almost done reading "Driving the Green: The Making of a Golf Course" by John Strawn. If you're interested in Hills and his work at all it's a neat look into his mindset and the way he works...both good and bad.

I've played a handful of Hills' designs and on each course I find that there are always quite a few interesting and fun holes, but then there are usually two or three holes that are just plain bad which outweigh the good. He builds alot of short drivable par-4's and usually has a very long, long, mid, and short par-3 set as well as prototypical risk reward par-5s. For every long hole there is a short hole, every dogleg left there is a right, etc... I think he designs with "balance" in mind.

I played three of his designs this year in the Chicago area, two public and one private. The first was Bollingbrook Golf Course which I think might be one of the worst designs I've ever played. Flat, long, wet, and boring with zero interest except for a couple short par-4's. The next was Stonewall Orchard which has some very good holes and is set in a neat area NW of Chicago with a property devoid of homes. The last was Chicago Highlands just west of the city which I did like and when it comes to Arthur Hills it should be considered the climax of his design career (firm, fast, a good set of greens with alot of movement...it's a fun course).

[Eric Smith]

I used to love playing the Hills course when I worked at PD in the late 80's.
It was an innovative and interesting course with a lot of width in places,narrow in others.

Jeff, I didn't realize you had worked there. I was there in the early 90's. Clark Sinclair was the head pro (he hired me) and would you believe he STILL is?!

[jeffwarne]

I used to love playing the Hills course when I worked at PD in the late 80's.
It was an innovative and interesting course with a lot of width in places,narrow in others.

Jeff, I didn't realize you had worked there. I was there in the early 90's. Clark Sinclair was the head pro (he hired me) and would you believe he STILL is?!

Yes Eric, i moved over to Long Cove in late 88 after a freak cart incident at PD.....
something about a cart rolling down the stairs of the Jones clubhouse..........3 times
Chip Pellerin was the DOG and seemingly bought my explanation
and yes I remember Clark

[Chris Johnston]

Eric - Shaker Run north of Cincinnati is a Hills gem.  Great variety of holes and challenge.

[Joel Zuckerman]

FWIW---At The Landings Club in Savannah GA there are six GC's...2 by Hills, 2 by Palmer (one of which has since redone by Tim Liddy)
one by Willard Byrd and one by Tom Fazio.

The two Hills offerings (Oakridge and Palmetto) are the most popular of the six...the former because it's the most player--friendly and forgiving, the latter because it is the most challenging.

[Billsteele]

Eric-I think a lot of the criticism of Arthur Hills' work stems from the fact that he has designed a boatload of golf courses and so few of them are remotely memorable. His body of work is a mile wide and an inch deep. Living in Art's home state (Ohio), I have played a fair share of his courses and he has done the Buckeye state no favors when it comes to his designs. There are a number of solid, serviceable golf courses in Tressel land but nothing that stands out (see the discussions of Longaberger on this board to get a taste of how he performed on a terrific site...the sentiment is mixed at best).

To me, the quality of his golf courses has often depended upon which design associate worked on them. Olde Stone in Kentucky is a very cool course with a lot of neat features. Newport National in Rhode Island is very enjoyable and well regarded. Drew Rogers was the Hills' associate who worked on both of them.

When I first went to Hilton Head in the late 1980's, we stayed at Palmetto Dunes. At that time, the Hills course was very much played up as the shining star in their three course galaxy. The last time I was in Hilton Head (a couple of summers ago), the Jones course (which had been redone) was promoted as the center of the Palmetto Dunes universe. I have played the Hills course twice and enjoyed it both times. What I recall is that it is almost a model for what a true resort course should be. It is relatively short. It has few fairway bunkers (probably due to the amount of water hazards on the course). It has a good mix of hard and easy holes so the casual golfer won't get too frustrated. If I remember correctly, I am not that big a fan of the 17th hole (my memory has it as a par four with a canal running down the left side with an approach shot over the hazard to a green pretty close to the water). I did enjoy some of the greensites but I think the rumpled nature of the fairways tapers off as you get beyond the first hole...but my memory could fail me on that account. I wouldn't decline to play there, but I think there are more interesting public options. If anything, that sort of sums up my attitude towards much of Hills' work: solid but not spectacular.

Thanks for posting the pictures. I have met Art Hills and he is a tremendously nice fellow. Send me an IM and I will tell you how I got him to say the "F" word.

[Eric Smith]

I used to love playing the Hills course when I worked at PD in the late 80's.
It was an innovative and interesting course with a lot of width in places,narrow in others.

Jeff, I didn't realize you had worked there. I was there in the early 90's. Clark Sinclair was the head pro (he hired me) and would you believe he STILL is?!

Yes Eric, i moved over to Long Cove in late 88 after a freak cart incident at PD.....
something about a cart rolling down the stairs of the Jones clubhouse..........3 times
Chip Pellerin was the DOG and seemingly bought my explanation
and yes I remember Clark

That's hilarious! We have a bit in common then. My first day on the job I had a major cart accident in front of the Jones clubhouse. A car pulled up to the bag drop and I took their bags out of the trunk.  I loaded 2 bags on the back of a cart and placed 2 more on the front seat of the cart, like I had been trained to do earlier that morning. One of the bags on the seat slipped down and depressed the gas pedal....a long slow 5-7 seconds later the cart smashes into a brand new Lincoln Town Car. The Japanese foursome whose bags I had just unloaded stood there quietly in disbelief. As did I.  Had a meeting later that afteroon with Clark and Chip, who was still the Director of Golf when I was there, and they spared me from dismissal. But I am forever known as Crash by my friends who were on staff with me back then.

[JLahrman]

Eric - Shaker Run north of Cincinnati is a Hills gem.  Great variety of holes and challenge.

Personally I do not care for Shaker Run.  It is not the worst course around, but I would never use the word 'gem'.  It has a good local reputation, owing partly to its conditioning which I hear may have fallen off, and architecturally I don't think it's all that great.  I will add a disclaimer to say that I have not played the course in quite awhile, but I was never that impressed.

In the area, I do like Weatherwax, which had to be one of his first designs.  36 holes, and only a couple that I don't care for.  Quite a few could be improved by a simple adjustment or two, but overall I've always enjoyed playing there.

Pipestone, just south of Dayton, is not very enjoyable at all.  There are two or three holes that could charitably be described as decent and far too many - #2, #3, #6, #9, #12, #18 - that are just plain poor.  I do hear that the infamous weed field on #9 (infamous because I ranted about its stupidity to my playing partners every time I played the course) has been filled in, which is at least a step in the right direction.

[Carl Nichols]

Hills did the renovation on my home course, Bethesda Country Club, in the early 90's, before I was a member and before I had ever seen the course.  The work was well-received by the membership, and I assume was perceived as well done by members of other clubs in Montgomery County because since then Hills has done renovations at Burning Tree, Chevy Chase, Congressional (Gold), Woodmont, and Manor.  He has also done renovations at Fairfax and Belle Haven.  I assume that if people at these clubs were complaining about his work, he wouldn't keep getting retained by other similarly situated clubs. 

I haven't played many of his original designs, but I am generally not a fan. 

[Bob Jenkins]

My only exposure to Arthur Hills' architecture has been the Links course at Halfmoon Bay, Ca., which was one of the most disappointing courses I have ever encountered. The holes lacked any imagination, bunkers were very ordinary and the entire course just seemed to be disjointed. It seemed as though it was called a links course because it was near the ocean (although up on a cliff) and was quite wide open for the most part but it did not feel or play in anyway like a true links.

I have heard good things of some of his courses but that experience would make me very cautious about visiting another one of his courses.

[Eric Smith]

Sounds like quite a mixed bag from all of the responses thus far.

Bill,

Your memory is good regarding the 17th. It is a love/hate thing with the tee shot there for me as well, always has been.  I followed Tiger during the Golfworld Palmetto Dunes Intercollegiate tourney and watched him take an 8 there, finish with 80 and lose the tournament to Stewart Cink or maybe it was Chris Tidland. Anyway, if you hook it there you're in the lagoon. If you push it you're over the dunes into Shipyard. If you crush it straight with driver you can go through the fairway. I always tried to play a push draw 5 wood there. Worked out fine about half the time!

There is rumple on 10 as well as on 17 and 18 from my memory.

Send me a pm on the 'F'.

[Eric Smith]

This is interesting to see as I'm almost done reading "Driving the Green: The Making of a Golf Course" by John Strawn. If you're interested in Hills and his work at all it's a neat look into his mindset and the way he works...both good and bad.

Pat,

I have that book and for some damn reason could never get into it. I'll take another look, thanks.

[Peter Ferlicca]

I have played some Arthur Hills courses, and to be honest he is my least favorite designer.  My three experiences with Hills courses are

- Bighorn Mountain-  Not even close compared to the Fazio Canyon course, it has horrible bunkers that you can putt out of.  Some of the worst designed holes I have seen, one including a downhill 500 yard par 4 with a ravine crossing the fairway at 270 yards, leaving usually around 240 yards into the green.  I have no clue how members enjoy playing this course compared to the Fazio, but suprisingly a good amount of members prefer the mountain.

Crosscreek-  There has been plenty of threads talking about the dissapointment here.  One of the best properties you will see in So-Cal and the golf course is very average.

Heritage Eagle Bend-  IMO a zero.  I had a thread about it, the worst golf course I have ever played in my life.  Every hole was either way downhill or straight uphill.

So I may sound blunt, but I have not enjoyed my rounds on his courses, and have no interest to see more.

[Richard Hetzel]

I think for what he designs (or gets paid to design) he does decent enough work. When I think of Arthur Hills, I think of "residential, cart golf". With that said, I have played a few of his courses that are devoid of homes and such, but are still pretty much cart golf. To be fair to Art, he designs what he gets paid to do and I try to judge his work within that framework. I think it is unfair to judge him against other big name GCA's (I will place him ahead of Rees though!)  since he is not securing the best land, with high rollers paying him a huge design fee and free artistic reign, but I could be wrong. I feel if you judge him by that standard (residential, cart golf with some resort courses), with a few exceptions, he makes fair, playable for all types, golf courses. Overall, his courses are pretty consistent, and I can expect a decent round of golf when I play a new Hills' course.

I am surprised that I have played this many Hills' courses.

I liked:

Red Hawk (MI)
Forest Akers West (MI)
Hills Course at Boyne (MI)
Shepherd's Hollow (MI)

I somewhat liked:

Longaberger GC (OH)
Hawkshead Links (MI)
Coosaw Creek (SC)
Fox Run GC (KY) (all except the last 2 holes which should be completely bulldozed)
Fieldstone (MI)
Fox Hills (MI)
Pheasant Run (MI)
Legendary Run (MI) (The front 9 is good, the back 9 not so much)
Lakes of Taylor (MI)
Weatherwax (both courses) (OH)

Kinda disappointed:

Bay Harbor (MI)
Shaker Run (OH)
East GC (OH)
Pipestone (OH)
Red Hawk Run (OH)
Wetherington CC (OH)
Turnberry GC (OH)
Kinsale CC (OH)

Want to Play soon:

Eagle Ridge (KY)
Hills Course at Palmetto Dunes (I liked those pictures!)

[Richard Hetzel]

Eric - Shaker Run north of Cincinnati is a Hills gem.  Great variety of holes and challenge.

Very overrated, and completely going by the wayside. I heard they lost a bunch of greens recently and since it is in receivership, it is being operated on a shoestring budget.

[JLahrman]

Very overrated, and completely going by the wayside. I heard they lost a bunch of greens recently and since it is in receivership, it is being operated on a shoestring budget.

I'm sure you're more up to date on it than I am Rich, but the "O" word has always fit in my opinion.  Hard to believe it hosted the Public Links just a few years ago (the year that Michelle Wie reached the quarters, hoping to win the thing and qualify for the Masters).

How were you only "kinda disappointed" by Pipestone?  You've played more Hills courses than me so maybe your expectations were set differently, but that's a very generous opinion of the course.  Wetherington I've only played once and it wasn't my favorite, but it was far better than Pipestone.  I try to keep an open mind about anybody's courses - which can be difficult with Hills because he seems to be the Franzia of architects on this site - but Pipestone is just a mess of a golf course.

[Adam Clayman]

His re-do of the former member's re-do of his Dunes at Seville is actually quite challenging. Not bad at all really.

[Richard Hetzel]

Very overrated, and completely going by the wayside. I heard they lost a bunch of greens recently and since it is in receivership, it is being operated on a shoestring budget.

I'm sure you're more up to date on it than I am Rich, but the "O" word has always fit in my opinion.  Hard to believe it hosted the Public Links just a few years ago (the year that Michelle Wie reached the quarters, hoping to win the thing and qualify for the Masters).

How were you only "kinda disappointed" by Pipestone?  You've played more Hills courses than me so maybe your expectations were set differently, but that's a very generous opinion of the course.  Wetherington I've only played once and it wasn't my favorite, but it was far better than Pipestone.  I try to keep an open mind about anybody's courses - which can be difficult with Hills because he seems to be the Franzia of architects on this site - but Pipestone is just a mess of a golf course.

So what is your take on this hole?  

[JeffTodd]

At one point in time I had never played a Hills course, or a course that I would rate as a zero (because it should never have been built). Then I played White Clay Creek in Delaware and killed two birds with one stone.

[Matthew Rose]

I have experience with two Art Hills designs. The first is the aforementioned course at Palmetto Hall in Hilton Head.... don't remember a whole lot about it other than I was 17 years old and I shot a million. I was trying out a driver that had too flexible a shaft and I spent the whole day fighting a terrible hook.

The other is Legacy Ridge in suburban Denver, which I play frequently, if only because my parents live on it.

It really isn't all that bad to play except for two holes which I absolutely hate (and a couple others that are awkward). It does contain, however, one of my favorite holes in Denver, which is the par-4 13th (this is the one you can see driving on 104th Ave approaching Sheridan Blvd.).

However, the par-fives are all very poor. #6 in particular is really bad. 570 yards from the tips, but you have to lay up off the tee because an environmentally sensitive creek crosses the fairway at 280 out and cannot be carried. The fairway ends and as it does so, there are clusters of trees on either side creating a giant tunnel that you must hit your second shot through. Unless you lay up your tee shot to the dead center of the fairway (which drops off severely on the right and the left), then you have to hit a rope hook or a huge slice just to lay up on your second shot. As if that wasn't bad enough, the fairway in the driving area has a big hump jutting out into the left two-thirds of the fairway which can hold your ball up in rough or kick it off the fairway altogether.

#11 is another stupid par-five similar to #6, except that you have to hit your tee shot over the creek and through the chute.

Then there's #18, which is a 500 yard par-five with a 10 foot wide fairway and thick woods on either side that make you feel like you've somehow been transported to a completely different golf course.

I find in general that it is just way, way too narrow for a public course. There is plenty of wide open space available on many holes yet they have very narrow and uneven mowing lines to all the fairways. The fairways also pinch in at strange spots which aren't visible from the tee, so you often find yourself thinking you are in the fairway when you are actually well off it. It's too close to US Open for my liking.

[Brian Laurent]

Someone has to like his work...he has had a long and very successful career!  His recent courses that I am aware of are all residential properties where the ultimate goal is to sell lots.  I think he does a great job of designing aesthetically pleasing golf courses, the kind that attract your "average" golfer who just wants something nice to look at.  

Personally, I like some of his work as well...not top 10 stuff, but enjoyable.  I worked at an Art Hills course in Indy (Hawthorns) for a few years.  It had some bland holes, but also some very good ones including some solid short par 4's and a nice 5, 3, 4 finishing stretch.  

Paging Ryan DeMay....

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