[PCCraig]

On last night’s episode of “Donald J. Trump’s Fabulous World of Golf” the Donald was riding in a cart down the 18th hole at Bay Hill, which features a pond fronting the green, with Arnold Palmer when he asked “Arnold, does a great 18th hole have to feature water?” Arnold then responded with a “uhhh yeah it forces the player to be more precise…” to which I started laughing.

But then I started thinking of different 18th holes that I’ve played that are highly regarded and noted that many of them do indeed feature water. So then I asked myself, is Donald Trump right?

To start, I did some googling and found the following list on the Golf Channel’s website that shows the top 10 best finishing holes on Tour, then noted if they feature water:

10) Harbor Town – Yes.
9) Kapalua – Ocean is seen, ravine is in play.
Quail Hallow – Yes.
7) Riviera – No.
6) Valhalla – Yes.
5) Doral – Yes.
4) Bay Hill – Yes.
3) Sawgrass – Yes.
2) Carnoustie – Yes.
1) Pebble Beach – Yes.

Only Riviera features a totally water-less 18th hole.

I then pulled up the Golf Digest Top 100 in America list from 2009 and figured out on each course if featured water or not. By my count 52 courses have 18th holes with water. Of those 52 there are more modern courses than classic, and a quick trip through the Golfweek Modern List made me believe that there would be a much higher percentage of that list with courses finishing with water in play.

It’s also interesting to note the following list of architects and the percentage of their courses that made the list feature water on the 18th:

Coore 0% (0/2)
Doak: 50% (1/2)
Dye: 90% (9/10)
Engh: 67% (2/3)
Flynn: 33% (1/3)
Fazio: 85% (11/13)
Nicklaus: 100% (10/10)
Ross: 33% (3/9)
RTJ, Sr.: 17% (1/6)

Is the Donald onto something here? Do players generally prefer an 18th hole with water and does the lack of water diminish the hole in the general public’s eyes?? Should the 18th hole be treated any differently than the other 17? Why are so many modern architect’s building their courses with a water feature on the last hole? Are the developers asking for it?

[Michael Huber]

Generally speaking, I think a water hazard of some sort makes a hole more memorable and more dramatic.  And lets face it, most golfers are looking for both memories and drama. 

Also, I'd be real curious to see what the % of a "Top 100 classic courses" have water on them. 

[Brian_Ewen]

“Donald J. Trump’s Fabulous World of Golf”

Is there really such a programme ?

 

[Tim Bert]

I just did a quick check against the 18th holes of my favorite courses.  Not to imply that these 18th holes are great.  I like some more than others.  But to me the greatness of the course is more important than the greatness of the 18th hole, so I can at least answer "Is it necessary for a course to have water on the 18th hole to be great?"

Classics:
Cypress Point:  No
Riviera: No
Yale: No
Crystal Downs: No
Pebble Beach: Yes

Moderns:
Pacific Dunes: No
Sand Hills: No
Ballyneal: No
Kingsley: No
Old Macdonald: No

Conclusion:  I think I'm ok if the 18th hole doesn't have water

[Matthew Petersen]

I've always had the impression it was driven by developers wanting a water hole at the last. Gives a pleasant view from the clubhouse and creates a sense of drama.

i say I've always had the impression it was the developer's choice due to the high number of courses out here in the dry western US that have little or no water in play until you reach the 18th. That's clearly no accident.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Pat if its a straight yes or a no then I'd say Yes. A lot depends on the course and sometimes it just do not fit. If you look at great golf courses there are not many dull 18th's, so it needs some kind of drama.

[PCCraig]

Generally speaking, I think a water hazard of some sort makes a hole more memorable and more dramatic.  And lets face it, most golfers are looking for both memories and drama. 

Also, I'd be real curious to see what the % of a "Top 100 classic courses" have water on them. 

Since going through and checking the 200 courses on the GW list, for the time being I started with the Top 25.

According to my count 5 courses out of the top 25 "classic" courses feature water compared to 12 of the top 25 "modern" courses.

[PCCraig]

“Donald J. Trump’s Fabulous World of Golf”

Is there really such a programme ?

 

Brian:

There sure is:

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/donald-trump/

Coming soon to Scotland in 2012...

[Emil Weber]

There might have been a trend in the past for that, but I think most on here would agree that it is absurd that an 18th hole HAS to have water, or even a certain kind of hazard.

In my opinion an 18th hole should fit in with the rest of the course and make sense in the flow of the course.

[PCCraig]

There might have been a trend in the past for that, but I think most on here would agree that it is absurd that an 18th hole HAS to have water, or even a certain kind of hazard.

In my opinion an 18th hole should fit in with the rest of the course and make sense in the flow of the course.

Is the risk/reward element that a typical water hazard brings to an 18th hole a welcome addition generally? Think of 18 at Pebble and the way the water makes the player think twice before going for the green in two. If not water, it's bunkers or another dominant feature, why do architects feel the need to make the 18th a little more special than the rest?

[Philippe Binette]

THE OLD COURSE :   YES


water on 18, Mr Trump gets it

[SL_Solow]

The emphasis on the 18th as a dramatic finishing hole is a relatively new phenomenon driven by medal play and television.  When match play was the dominant game, matches were often over by 18 so the drama was wasted.  Additionally, when architecture was more "lay of the land" if the water wasn't available the architect found something else.  That said, putting aside whether one believes that Arnie's opinions on architecture should be given great credence in light of his track record as an a architect, I suspect he agreed with Trump because he was on Trump's show on Arnie's channel.  I would say no if for no other reason than I reject almost all hard and fast rules for architecture and because there are numerous great courses and many great finishing holes that don't have water.  If it fits fine.  By the way; I wonder what the answer would have been if he had asked Arnie about the importance of waterfalls or whether his course in California is better than Pebble Beach?

[PCCraig]

The emphasis on the 18th as a dramatic finishing hole is a relatively new phenomenon driven by medal play and television.  When match play was the dominant game, matches were often over by 18 so the drama was wasted.  Additionally, when architecture was more "lay of the land" if the water wasn't available the architect found something else.  That said, putting aside whether one believes that Arnie's opinions on architecture should be given great credence in light of his track record as an a architect, I suspect he agreed with Trump because he was on Trump's show on Arnie's channel.  I would say no if for no other reason than I reject almost all hard and fast rules for architecture and because there are numerous great courses and many great finishing holes that don't have water.  If it fits fine.  By the way; I wonder what the answer would have been if he had asked Arnie about the importance of waterfalls or whether his course in California is better than Pebble Beach?

Thanks for your response Shelly.

The host of the show did introduce that day's venue, Trump LA, as "the highest rated golf course in California"...obviously not the case but worth a chuckle for those knowing better. As for waterfalls the 1st hole there features a waterfall in front, and behind, the green...way over the top.

[PCCraig]

What's the most dramatic and interesting finishing hole in the US that doesn't feature water? Is it PV? Oakmont? Merion? The Country Club?

[Ari Techner]

What's the most dramatic and interesting finishing hole in the US that doesn't feature water? Is it PV? Oakmont? Merion? The Country Club?

The 18th at PV does have water.

My vote for most interesting and dramatic finishing hole without water goes to Sand Hills.

[JNC Lyon]

NO!!!!!

I think it's ridiculous that 5 of the "Top 10" finishing holes on tour are pretty much the exact same hole: long par four with water down one side of the fairway. In fact, most finishers on tour are like this. That is the most overused, cliched hole in golf.  Water is a very unexciting hazard that eliminates golf's most exciting shot--the recovery shot.

Yes, it's true, many finishers do have water, which comes naturally if the clubhouse is located on a body of water.  But frankly, if an architect thinks he needs water to create "drama," he has zero sense of imagination or creativity.  Donald Trump is not known for (a) creativity, or (b) having any knowledge whatsoever about golf course architecture, so it makes sense that he would make that statement.

The most dramatic and interesting finishing hole in the US without water?  Well, it would be Pine Valley, considering it has water in front of the green.  Merion is pretty exciting.  Though it is not one of my favorite holes on the course, it is damn near perfect as a match play finisher.  The most exciting moment of last year's Walker Cup was Peter Uihlein's par save on 18 for a foursomes win on the morning of the first day.  The Ocean Course is another great finisher without the use of water.

[Michael Huber]

Since going through and checking the 200 courses on the GW list, for the time being I started with the Top 25.

According to my count 5 courses out of the top 25 "classic" courses feature water compared to 12 of the top 25 "modern" courses.

Thanks for the Info, Pat.  Since we so often pit the ODG vs. the modern architects, I must ask these questions:

1.)  Did the ODG consider water to be a highly desirable feature to increase drama/entertainment

2.)  A smaller percentage of classic courses had water on the final hole.  Is this because
   a.)  A smaller percentage of classic courses were in water friendly areas (i.e. along a shore, florida, etc.)  ?
   b.)  It was harder to build a man made water hazards way back when?

3.)  I'd speculate that most classic courses did not need that drama on the final hole since most of the people who played it, played it often.  Conversely, how often does one get to play some of these resort courses with highly dramatic ends? 

[Pete_Pittock]

According to the opening entry, The Donald asked a question, he did not make a statment of fact or opinion. There are many great finishing holes with water and many great finishing holes without water, so there is no "right" or "wrong" answer just your preference.

That said, the presence of a body of water is equally dreaded by golfers and cats so I would creep down with the side of water.

[SL_Solow]

Pete;  I don't watch the show but I was flipping channels.  (I know, I also looked at Playboy for the articles).  In any event, it was clear that the question was rhetorical.  JC, if you are reading this and you still think that I "talk funny", that means it wasn't really a question.

[Jim Johnson]

My guess as to a reason it's favored by developers is that it provides a "pleasing" vista from the clubhouse, as mentioned by Matthew P., for those watching the closing action from the veranda.

And I agree with JNC that the long par four with water along one side is an oft over-used and over cliched hole. How boring is that? Hit it into the water, dig another one out of the bag. What about a short par-5 with a menacing bunker complex short of or impacting one side of the green, enticing the player to go for it? Gives the average Joe a reasonable chance at bunting it up there for a par, while challenging the expert to go for the eagle or birdie. I think that's the way to end the round. Leaves the player with a good taste in his/her mouth, wanting to return for more. As a developer wouldn't you want that? Beats seeing guys dump a shot or two in a lake and walk off with a double or worse.

[Steve Wilson]

From his standpoint, sure.

From a golf standpoint, no.

[Mark McKeever]

I dont think an 18th hole necessarily "needs water", but it does present more potential drama for a finishing hole.  The 18th at my club is on high land and there isn't any water, but Im okay with that. 

Mark

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