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Eric Smith

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Changes to the 18th at Dismal River - update
« on: October 26, 2010, 12:40:14 PM »
John Kavanaugh asked me to post these construction photos he received from Chris Johnston this morning, in hopes of generating some discussion.
 
18 @ Dismal River


 

 

 

 
Personally, I found the original green to be a good one and its blind nature to be in congruence with the rest of the golf course. That's not to say that I think the new one will be out of place. After seeing the pics I am already warming to it.  Looks like Heaven to a righty who plays a sweeping hook!

I'm guessing it will now play maybe 75-100 yards shorter --  is that about right, Chris?

Eric
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 11:47:40 AM by Eric Smith »

George Pazin

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2010, 12:42:38 PM »
Some labels on pix might help - which way you're facing, etc. Might be clear to those who've seen it, isn't necessarily to me.

Thanks. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Eric Smith

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2010, 12:50:39 PM »



George Pazin

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2010, 01:05:56 PM »
Thanks! That helped a lot.

Looks like a bummer of a change, but I obviously haven't played it. Look forward to reading others' thoughts.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2010, 01:09:04 PM »
Just to find out -- the final hole will still be a par-5 ?

I too concur -- the old green was clearly different than the rest -- but as a three-shot hole I like what I see can be done to provide a bit more excitement to the hole.

When I played DR about two years ago it had some issues that needed to be addressed -- getting the 13th in order along with the 18th does help speed things along.

Sad to say -- when you have ANY course that near to Sand Hills the overall hill to climb will be considerable.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2010, 01:12:17 PM »
I assume par will change, but, will wait til Chris responds.

The center fronting bunker needs something. Not sure what, but if it is just that bit of a circular thing, it will definitely be out of character. I'm assuming it's nowhere near completed. Just throwing it out there.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2010, 01:16:53 PM »
I was  one who was not a fan of the 18th green at DR and I like the change.  Might I suggest that the old green be used for a par 3 19th hole which I have seen at other courses - it could be a quirky and fun way to settle any halved bets. 

Adam Russell

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2010, 02:25:12 PM »
Isn't this just a watered-down version of #18 at Sand Hills? Apologies if that's been discussed before, but it's the first time I've seen a tee shot pic of DR...
The only way that I could figure they could improve upon Coca-Cola, one of life's most delightful elixirs, which studies prove will heal the sick and occasionally raise the dead, is to put rum or bourbon in it.” -Lewis Grizzard

Chris Johnston

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2010, 03:01:52 PM »
All

The new green was sited roughly 75 yards from the existing green.  We will now use the seldom used tee area adjacent to 17 green which is approximately 100 yards back from the current member tees.  Thus the hole, still an uphill into the wind Par 5, will play 25 yards longer for most - total yardage in the 520 range.  The shot values are far better than before and the entire hole is visible from the tees.  We will also use the upper tee for members and may add a tee or two (one upper and one lower) after monitoring a bit.  The green complex can be reached with both aerial and ground games via sloped approaches. 

From the upper tee, this may be one of the most dramatic finishing holes, tee to green around. 

Jerry - Yes, we may use the old 18th as a "fun" or 19th, with a walk to the tee from Jack's Shack.

Adam  18 at SHGC and 18 at Dismal have few things in common, other than both are uphill and both are the finish.  18 at SHGC is a par 4 with limited views of the green from the tee while GRGC is a Par 5 and the bunkering and terrain are very different.  My good friend, Dick Youngscap, was gracious and generous enough to stop by to look our new green site over (he has a great eye for placement and drainage).  Nothing watered down about it - it is a spectacular hole and birdie will be well earned.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2010, 03:14:26 PM »
Chris: it does look really good to me but who am I?  Anyway, will the new tee be straight back from the current tee or will the diagonal be cut down somewhat - it could make for a heck of a tough tee shot if it is straight back keeping that angle.

Eric Smith

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2010, 05:10:05 PM »
Chris: it does look really good to me but who am I?  Anyway, will the new tee be straight back from the current tee or will the diagonal be cut down somewhat - it could make for a heck of a tough tee shot if it is straight back keeping that angle.

Jerry,

Not sure if you're asking about the new tee (the one Chris mentions is seldom used, but 100 yards back from the current members tee) or the new new tee that he is considering building up top.

Here is a shot from the former, just steps off of the 17th green with Kavanaugh setting up for the kill.



I like this tee best, though I did end up hitting one of the craziest second shots I've ever played after hitting from here. I borrowed JK's driver and ripped one on a little too aggressive of a line over the sandy waste area and was left with a very odd, difficult lie where the fairway and the sand meet. I then proceeded to hit my next shot straight up in the air, over my head and behind me, landing right next to a jack rabbit. I'm not kidding. Mac was up at Jack's Shack watching us finish up and you could hear him laughing hysterically all the way down where I was....so I had a good laugh as well!

Adam Russell

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2010, 05:26:35 PM »
Chris -

No doubt it looks tough. Maybe it's the angle of the shot, but I still think the bunker makes a fleeting resemblence to #18 at SH even if the pars are different.. Basically OB right on both holes, bunker left, uphill. Maybe watered down was a little strong, and I should have said tee shot. It does look like one of Jack's best; plus being compared to one of the best holes in golf can't be all bad!
The only way that I could figure they could improve upon Coca-Cola, one of life's most delightful elixirs, which studies prove will heal the sick and occasionally raise the dead, is to put rum or bourbon in it.” -Lewis Grizzard

Chris Johnston

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2010, 06:39:40 PM »
Chris -

No doubt it looks tough. Maybe it's the angle of the shot, but I still think the bunker makes a fleeting resemblence to #18 at SH even if the pars are different.. Basically OB right on both holes, bunker left, uphill. Maybe watered down was a little strong, and I should have said tee shot. It does look like one of Jack's best; plus being compared to one of the best holes in golf can't be all bad!

Adam - I can see where the pics may lead to a comparison but the holes are completely different.  18 at SHGC cuts across the fairway creating a "bite off as much as you like (risk reward) tee shot" while 18 at Dizzy is pretty much straight on.  I agree that being mentioned in the same breath as 18 at Sand Hills (or Sand Hills at all) is more than flattering - while only nine miles apart, the holes , topography, and courses are quite different.  There is nothing better for me than Sand Hills - some of that home course bias, I guess.

Eric - I think I saw than rabbit this afternoon.  Same area, he's huge!

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2010, 08:44:35 PM »
Eric,

Thanks for posting the pics, I'm excited to play the new hole and believe the center bunker will find its look this winter.  One small nuance that is important to me personally is that I believe the new green site will transition into the next round easier than the old. It will be just a touch easier to access and infinitely better to observe from Jack's Shack.  
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 09:01:39 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Chris Johnston

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2010, 10:17:07 PM »
Eric,

Thanks for posting the pics, I'm excited to play the new hole and believe the center bunker will find its look this winter.  One small nuance that is important to me personally is that I believe the new green site will transition into the next round easier than the old. It will be just a touch easier to access and infinitely better to observe from Jack's Shack.  

John - the center bunker transitions a steep elevation and fits well in person.  You are spot on re: viewing from Jack's and moving from round to the next.  Two really fine shots could lead to Birdie or Eagle - kind of a lost art in the jungle of long par 5's these days.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 11:07:42 PM by Chris Johnston »

Eric Smith

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2010, 11:42:28 PM »


I'm only estimating the new green location here...a Google Earth measurement shows the hole at 510 yards +/- from the tee beside 17 green to the area left of that big bunker. My flight lines are broken up into a 270 yard tee shot and a 240 yard second.

With the scaled back yardage and more accessible green, I agree -- it should provide more of an opportunity to finish the round with a birdie or possible eagle. I look forward to playing it.

Chris Johnston

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2010, 09:06:01 AM »


I'm only estimating the new green location here...a Google Earth measurement shows the hole at 510 yards +/- from the tee beside 17 green to the area left of that big bunker. My flight lines are broken up into a 270 yard tee shot and a 240 yard second.

With the scaled back yardage and more accessible green, I agree -- it should provide more of an opportunity to finish the round with a birdie or possible eagle. I look forward to playing it.

Eric - Keep in mind, that +/- 250 yard second shot is uphill and into the prevailing wind.  Tempting?  Yes.  Two excellent shots will be rewarded...if you can putt.  Holler when you are coming out!

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2010, 09:53:19 AM »
Personally, of all the holes at Dismal, 318 would not have ben one that I would change.
There are at least six others that I would adjust before 18 which I found to be one of the finest holes on the course.
I just dont see how the hole is enhanced by the change...suggestion..keep both greens?
that would be rather cool to keep both of them...any opinions?

Adam Clayman

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2010, 10:02:09 AM »
MWP, There are those in agreement with you, but, Chris has articulated the reasons for change and has assured us it's going to be a better hole.

I think he might be right.

In the original, there was likely never a go no-go decision. Now, even I might have the luxury of having that decision to make.

If the cant of the right side is as steep as it looks in that photo, the hole reminds me of a couple of Flynn holes I've seen.

As for keeping the original as an alternate, for the first time, I think I would agree with that. I'm not a fan of the alternate green concept because it will always piss somebody off that they aren't playing to the green they prefer. But, in this case, since it is hidden, that disappointment will be mitigated.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2010, 10:09:58 AM »
Michael,

The hole is enhanced more from the tee than the green.  The tee next to 17 green is architecturally one of the finest on the course and the tee up on the hill is one of the finest visually.  From either tee the hole is just too difficult for 95% of Dismal's members and guests.  I too once opposed the changing of the hole but soon came to realize that is a selfish stance.  Now after looking at the initial work I am 100% convinced this change will benefit everyone who actually plays the course.

One thing you need to understand is that the 18th at Dismal is rarely the last hole of the day.  The conclusion of play is dictated by either darkness or flight schedule.  The 17 mile one lane paved road is the greatest deterrent to hit and running ever created by golfing man.  I believe anyone would also agree that a touch less difficulty at Dismal will not be missed.

I don't see how keeping the other green makes anymore sense than moving next door to an ex-wife.

Eric Smith

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2010, 10:23:20 AM »

I don't see how keeping the other green makes anymore sense than moving next door to an ex-wife.

I love reading you in the morning...I am now wide awake. Welcome back.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2010, 10:23:54 AM »
Love the wife next door comment...really made me laugh.
I look forward to seeing all the canges next summer, as I was so dissapointed when I was there last time, but could see how much potential the place had.
The lodge, accomodation and food was superb but about six of the holes left alot to be desired..especially on the front side around 3-7 or so, I cant remember the exact numbers.
One was an impossible par three over a ravine, but there was not any grass growth on the bank at that time and I think the next hole was a ridiculous par four with otions to go to a high landing area or low one...the low one was safe, but gave you the most blind next shot I have ever seen....I know both of these holes now show significant change for the better.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2010, 02:17:30 PM »
Well, I guess it is just a matter of how a golf course design arrives or evolves to a higher level of critical acclaim.  Some architects have been good enough to hit the right notes from the git-go.  But, I am thinking that many of our highly acclaimed courses of this era, were tinkered with over years until ceratin design features fell into place and arrived eventually at a better playing design concept either in specific individual hole evolution, to the more extreme tinkering of overall routing and reworked design ideas.

So what?  Yes, the GCA can advertise himself as a design firm that gets it right the first time and that may translate to a better competitive advantage to get new projects.  But, the management or new management of developments that may need rework can taut themselves as having the wherewithall to not be afraid to make changes to 'get it right for the member/customer'.  In the end, if the product is good out of the box, or gets there eventually, the golfer should get to play a great design sooner or later, if all the people in the decision making loop are motivated to pursue excellence. 

It is the developer who has the fat in the fire, and some suffer because it wasn't well decided or conceived right out of the box.  That is the risk and part of good and bad decisions based on so many factors from marketing a big name player archie, to selecting those who have had more success on the first iteration.  But, to the golf consumer, getting to play a version that is utlimately the best quality is the goal, and the consumer leaves it to the developers to suffer the anxieties of getting it right.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Chris Johnston

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2010, 03:04:41 PM »
All -  The old 18th green and hole was quirky and fun to play - it just wasn't a good finish.  It would have made a nice mid nine offering, a good 7th hole for example. The new hole is a far better and proper crescendo.

John - I may have a sign made up for the former green....."ex wives only!".  Also agree, using the back tees makes the hole much better, as does the new green.  Dare I say, this is among the most beautiful finishes these eyes have seen?

RJ - out here, the course is always changing - 40+ mph winds yesterday and today - bunkers "evolving" as I write, as is the paint job on my truck.  Over time, we sometimes see a better angle or way to make her better.  Better is always better.


Scott Szabo

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Re: Changes to the 18th at Dismal River
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2010, 01:05:05 PM »
Chris,

Thanks for taking the time to repsond to all the questions from the group.  One more for you - are there any more proposed changes in the works or will the new green at #18 be it?

Scott

"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10