TOC on mats

[Chris Cupit]

Wow.  I am not a local but I thought mats were only for years prior to The Open Championship.  Obviously I can't imagine traveling to play in the winter but even if I found myself over there and my choice was play TOC on mats or play golf somewhere else I wouldn't hesitate to play the "real thing"!

If the number of winter rounds is in the neighborhood of 4,000 I don't see a huge benefit.  I'm just shocked as this is not even remotley "golf" and for five months??!  

Melvyn must be apoplectic

Which is worse:  walking with mats and/or preferred lies OR carts and playing it down?  Or is that like choosing between being shot or stabbed for you

[Don Dinkmeyer]

--This topic fascinates me - who 'enforces' mats? The caddies, or some guy in a golf cart aka Mr. Marshall

I have never been. I just see good discussion of why TOC could or could not be mat-less. To me, such a specific behavior (to my knowledge, do other stateside courses do this??) would be challenging to enforce.

[Simon Holt]

I too would love to see the stats but have to say as a member I had little issue with this when I lived in St. Andrews.  The other courses didnt require mats so we just played them which we tended to do more anyway as less touristas!

We do and have done the same thing at North Berwick for the past 15 years and again while I have not seen any stats the fairways have definitely improved.  I am fortunate that I play for the club in the East Lothian winter league so we get to play back tees and no mats which is a result! (only 2-3 months on mats at NB)

Overall- 5 months is way too long but there is certainly a marked improvement in condition.  Its one of these topics that can be talked over for hours with a few pints at the club (had it many times) and no one really seems to come up with a good balance.

In terms of enforcement it was never an issue.  If someone threatens to take away your links ticket for doing something....ya dinnie do it!!

[Dan King]

The problem is golfers desire for perfect conditions. Golf was never meant to be played in perfect conditions. There should never be such a thing as a perfect fairway. This is more of the powers that be in golf trying to eliminate the mental aspect of the game and turn it into a purely physical game. Someone should remind the Links Trust that golf is played outdoors for a reason.

I would never play their stick and ball game off of mats.

Cheers,
Dan King

Some players would complain if they had to play on Dolly Parton's beadspread.
 --Jimmy Demaret

[Mark Chaplin]

I heard a lovely story about an old girl at Hoylake who on he first time she had to use a mat threw it down, stood on it and hit the ball!

[Kevin Pallier]

Scott

I think 5 months is a bit too long to be playing off mats on TOC. Surely - a shortened timesheet could suffice for say Nov and Mar instead ?

[Chris Kane]

I played TOC off mats maybe two dozen times when I lived in St Andrews, after a while you get used to it and don't even notice. Obviously as a local I wasn't paying green fees, and would have been very reluctant to pay for the privilege (to charge 64 pounds in January 2011 is taking the piss) even though the experience wasn't really diminished.

Kevin, its a pretty short timesheet in November anyway - times run from 8 until 12.20.

[RSLivingston_III]

Some of you sound like whining little girls.
You have now seen and know the schedule, if it is that big a deal to you just don't go when they are in use.
I wonder how many of the complainers also do so about TOC being closed on Sunday?
It isn't the 1830's when the number of rounds in a day could be counted on one hand.

[Scott Macpherson]

Mr Livingston,

It saddens me that you feel the need to lower the tone. Perhaps consider not posting next time you want to call people names.



Everybody Else;

As the fact finding mission I hoped this thread always to be... I have some. So, to answer my own questions;

1- When were mats first introduced to TOC?  Winter of 1994/95


2- Why were they introduced? To help present the golf course as good as possible for the 1995 Open


3- How long were they in use for in that first year? Maybe Nov1 until March 31? (Can't quite confirm this)


4- In the month when the course reopened to 'normal play' when mats were used for the first time, what was the condition of the course compared to the previous year on the same month (when mats were not used)?  A: According to some, 'Vastly superior as there was a big reduction in divots' which is why  'locals have accepted mats being introduced to the other courses through the winter.'


5- Are mats in use for a longer period now? Maybe not. But maybe one month longer.


6- How many rounds were played last year on TOC when mats were in use (NB- about 44,000 rounds are played each year on TOC) Between 5,800 and 6,000 but the course was closed for snow and ice from 17 Dec until 21 Jan plus on a good number of other days between Nov 1 and March 31, a lot more than in previous years. NB– It is estimated that the Links Green-keepers replaced over 40,000 divots with plugs of turf from our nursery between Nov 1 and Christmas.

 
As for other courses, mats didn’t come onto the other courses until nearer the end of the 90’s and at first they were on two course for two months (Nov/Dec) then switched to the other two for Jan/Feb.

About 3 years ago, they moved to having them on all four courses (New, Jubilee, Eden and Strath) for 3 months at the same time. This year that has been extended to include February, basically as a result of a lot of locals saying last February and March that we should include Feb.

 It’s taken over 10 years but (most) local golfers have apparently actually started to become quite comfortable using them and really recognise the benefit to the courses in the spring and early summer.

Hope that widens our understanding of the practice of using Mats in St Andrews,


scott

[RSLivingston_III]

Sorry Scott, hope the change is more PC for you. My typing is slow and labored so I try to get to the point. I can no longer do half page long, detailed, and politically correct posts. Plus I found out some time ago the attention span on most forums isn't much longer than a couple of sentences.

Maybe I should delete that first sentence, or move it to become the second?

[Dan King]

RSLivingston_III writes:
Some of you sound like whining little girls.

Damn, I've been found out. My name is Sue King and I'm six.

You have now seen and know the schedule, if it is that big a deal to you just don't go when they are in use.

I've known the schedule. I don't go to St. Andrews when mats are in play. I like golf.

When the topic comes up about playing some stick and ball game at St. Andrews I am going to state my six-year-old girlie opinion. I'm not trying to get the Links Trust to change or anything, just not playing there.

I wonder how many of the complainers also do so about TOC being closed on Sunday?

I like that the course closes on Sunday. It would bother me if they opened the course for rugby on Sunday and called it golf, and I'd probably hold my breath and stomp my feet if they did that.

It isn't the 1830's when the number of rounds in a day could be counted on one hand.

So what would happen if they allowed golf 12 months of the year? I'm guessing fairways would not be pristine during the prime months. I don't see that as a bad thing.

Cheers,
Sue King

[The chief virtue of the links] may briefly be summarized as being; first, that they should be difficult; secondly, they should be pleasing to the eye; thirdly, that they should be strictly economical in design; and lastly, that to be truly admirable they will probably incur in the general opinion the accusation of being unfair.
 --H.N. Wethered, The Perfect Golfer, 1931

[Cristian]

I would not be interested to play a course on mats, but I am wondering;

What is the effect of the usage of mats on the duration of a round?

Just imagine people on every shot from the fairway rolling out their mat making sure it's not curled up, placing the ball, stowing it back on their trolley/golfbag etc etc ...tedious..

[Adrian_Stiff]

Its not to bad playing off the mats, they are very thin. I think of few of you have pre decided that its no good. I conceed if its your only round ever and your travelling, then just dont come in the winter. 3 months too long 5 months too long, its the winter for gawds sake and that grass is struggling. Tom Morris recognised that the course needed a rest back in 1880. Scottish Winters are long, its not for you to decide the period of rest..GOD decides.

[Ulrich Mayring]

The Links Trust is God, then? They decided on a flat five months, hail, snow or sunshine.

I have never heard of mats being used anywhere else in Europe and our winters are generally much stronger. If it freezes, there are temporary greens and if it snows the course closes. Yes, winter play will make for worse conditions in the spring - but so what? Any play on a golf course worsens conditions. It'll heal in the next growing season.

Ulrich

[Adrian_Stiff]

God is God Ulrich. You are very correct when you say all play is hurting the turf, what I would say is winter play exaggerates the hurt, yes in indeal world you would just close but the methods of mats, temporary greens, roped off areas, cart bans, troley bans, prefferred lies, raise height cuts are all instruments to lessen the pain to the winter turf, none are better for golf but they all help winter golf go on rather than close. Northern Europe is a tough climate for some Americans to understand.

[Mike Hendren]

Wait a minute.  I thought the cognoscenti had bought into the premise that golf course architecture is all about what happens when the ball lands.  If so are mats not irrelevant?

Bogey

[Gary Slatter]

Scott,
I've vented on this one before on here. FIVE freekin months out of twelve on mats on the supposedly PREMIERE Links Golf Course in the World. Propriety prevents me from writing what I am actually currently thinking.
Suffice to say, pathetic, really. What kind of message does the Links Trust think it's giving? Oh, wait a minute, the verb 'to think' implies some kind of sentient intelligence, doesn't it.
 
FBD.

Marty, as much as I disagree with 90%of LInks Trust management decisions, the use of mats is a great idea and allows many people to enjoy the courses when the turf is wetter than usual, with very little growth.   The mats are thin and if you shorten your grip slightly, no problem.  I score a bit better off mats, maybe a shot per 18.  It is inconvenient, but great way to play in the winter.  Last winter the Old and other courses had a tough winter and were closed more than 50% of Dec through Feb.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Why not accept that natural conditions are natural conditions? Why does the course have to be in perfect shape in spring? It is natural that it is worse for wear after the winter and that it takes some time for the grass to grow. I think especially the Links Trust as gatekeeper of the traditions of the game should accept that golf is an outdoors game and conditions can never be guaranteed.

Ulrich

[Niall C]

Adrian,

I think you hit the nail on the head in one of your earlier posts when you mentioned that its the foot traffic that does the damage as much as anything. TOC has always been heavily played in comparison to other courses but the average members course in the UK has seen a huge increase in play in the last 30 years. I have absolutely no stats to back that up, just my perception, but I think its fairly obvious. I can't be the only one who remembers summer days back then when it seemed you had the course to yourself whereas now at the same course, you have to book a tee time even during the week.

In addition, that foot traffic continues through the winter, when you rightly say, the course needs a rest. At TOC I would suggest that has probably always been the way and they have found ways of dealing with it like reversing play, or closing the course for stretches at a time. I guess the use of mats is just another variation on that theme. Scott is asking some fairly specific questions to which I don't have an answer but if he does manage to get an answer to them, I too would like to hear it. I wonder if anyone from the Links Trust would be willing to come on here and answer questions like in a Getting To Know thread. Now that would be interesting.

Niall

[Mark Pearce]

Anybody fancy a GCA day out at TOC this winter to test the mats out?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Why not accept that natural conditions are natural conditions? Why does the course have to be in perfect shape in spring? It is natural that it is worse for wear after the winter and that it takes some time for the grass to grow. I think especially the Links Trust as gatekeeper of the traditions of the game should accept that golf is an outdoors game and conditions can never be guaranteed.

Ulrich

Ulrich - Your not understanding the damage heavy winter traffic can do to a golf course. Taking things to an extreme, think of a field and a gate and what it likes just behind that gate. On a golf course heavy play versus little growth is a hard fight for turf, its not always what you see on the surface either, concentrated wear into walk off areas equals compacted turf. Wet turf compacts easier than dry turf, someone told me once a pair of feet does 28 times more damage in deep winter than in the summer.
Summer play and extending that summer period by the widest margin is what we strive for in greenkeping at the clubs I have been involved in, winter golf is not important, winter golf is more relaxed and should be treated as a walk at most UK courses.  Commercially very little money is taken in green fees or society revenues in the 5 month winter period, considering its 5 out of 12 months I think we would do only 70 societies as opposed to 350 in the other 7, member volume of play is much reduced also so you are better to have the course in good nick for the summertime, further in the sumertime you have twice the daylight.
The mats issue solves divot damage though, it does not reduce the foot traffic.
I think the Links trust are spot on in this case.

[Dan King]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
Your not understanding the damage heavy winter traffic can do to a golf course.

So what is the ripple of evil that will befall TOC if they let golfers play golf on the course 12 months of the year? They're will be divot holes, but if they happen in the winter will they never heal? Will they not heal until sometime in the Spring? Or are the mats just a way of reducing the number of rounds in the winter: Fewer people want to play the silly ball and club game and will go somewhere they allow golf?

Cheers,
Dan King

It’s absolutely stupid that we live without an ozone layer. We have men, we’ve got rockets, we’ve got saran wrap – FIX IT!!!
 --Lewis Black

[Pete_Pittock]

They rescind the mat rule just in time for playing TOC in reverse.
Based on my one attempt (pre-opening at Chambers Bay) playing of mats is better suited for a sweeping stroke rather than a steep approach.