[Mike Hendren]

argue that it's borderline "over the top" at times?

Double

[Jon Claydon]

i tend to think so.


But then again, i'm in love with the place. 

[Michael Whitaker]

Bogey - who has argued it is over the top?

[Tom_Doak]

That's why it's great.


Most great courses are borderline "over the top" at some point:


the difficulty of Pine Valley
the tiny greens of Pebble Beach
the 16th at Cypress Point
the Road Hole at St. Andrews, and some of the other hazards there
the crowned greens of Pinehurst #2

[Mike Hendren]

Whitty, I was just wondering:   How did seaside golf evolve from the relatively benign and bumpy linksland of The Old Course to the rollicking and dramatic dunesland at Ballybunion?  I can't help but wonder if the membership at Ballybunion embraced the course right out of the gate or if it was an acquired taste.  I assume golf balls were quite precious in that era and more than a few were lost at Ballybunion which in places suffers absolutely no foolishness. 

I experienced a very real sadness at Ballybunion that my game was not what it once was and was not deserving of a round at such an astonishing and amazing place.

Dubs

[Mike Hendren]

Excellent post, Tom.  From my experience, you don't often "go over the top."  While I so enjoy quirk, I'd consider your work to reflect some level of restraint - I like that term better than minimalism.  I think you have that in common with Donald J. Ross.  It would be fascinating if you'd start a thread along the lines of "holes where I flirted with over the top." 

Just rambling on a quiet work day, gang.

Happy New Year.

Dubs

[Tom_Doak]

Excellent post, Tom.  From my experience, you don't often "go over the top."  While I so enjoy quirk, I'd consider your work to reflect some level of restraint - I like that term better than minimalism.  I think you have that in common with Donald J. Ross.  It would be fascinating if you'd start a thread along the lines of "holes where I flirted with over the top." 

The book I'm working on has a few examples of places where I flirted with going over the top.


Black Forest, in particular, was a course where over the top was in play.  The client asked for it:  he said he never wanted to hear that the course was too easy, back in the days when hard courses with high Slope ratings got the lion's share of attention.  We did accomplish THAT mission, but I thought we went too far.  Luckily, that was only my third golf course, so I learned my lesson pretty fast, and I've shown more restraint since then.


Of course, some of my critics think I go over the top with my greens on every course.  They never seem to notice that other players are having a great time on those same greens.

[Tim Martin]

Excellent post, Tom.  From my experience, you don't often "go over the top."  While I so enjoy quirk, I'd consider your work to reflect some level of restraint - I like that term better than minimalism.  I think you have that in common with Donald J. Ross.  It would be fascinating if you'd start a thread along the lines of "holes where I flirted with over the top." 

The book I'm working on has a few examples of places where I flirted with going over the top.


Black Forest, in particular, was a course where over the top was in play.  The client asked for it:  he said he never wanted to hear that the course was too easy, back in the days when hard courses with high Slope ratings got the lion's share of attention.  We did accomplish THAT mission, but I thought we went too far.  Luckily, that was only my third golf course, so I learned my lesson pretty fast, and I've shown more restraint since then.


Of course, some of my critics think I go over the top with my greens on every course.  They never seem to notice that other players are having a great time on those same greens.

Tom-Do you think most players that are critical of your greens fall into A)Good players that three putt often and hence can’t match their handicaps or B) Regular players that constantly get on the wrong side of the hole and struggle? I love wild greens and regardless of the venue and or architect I lately have chalked up three putts to little more than a lack of skill on my part.

[Jon Claydon]

Whitty, I was just wondering:   How did seaside golf evolve from the relatively benign and bumpy linksland of The Old Course to the rollicking and dramatic dunesland at Ballybunion?  I can't help but wonder if the membership at Ballybunion embraced the course right out of the gate or if it was an acquired taste.  I assume golf balls were quite precious in that era and more than a few were lost at Ballybunion which in places suffers absolutely no foolishness. 

I experienced a very real sadness at Ballybunion that my game was not what it once was and was not deserving of a round at such an astonishing and amazing place.

Dubs

To clarify, my initial response was based only on my view of the term "over the top" as pejorative. 


The dictionary definition is:  extremely or excessively flamboyant or outrageous


I maintain that BallyB Old is not neither, though it does have a rarely seen scale of dunesland and impeccable green sites. 


BallyB New, however, can arguably be characterized as over the top. 

[Ian Andrew]

From my experience, you don't often "go over the top." 

The argument for "over the top" has always been his greens.
It's actually the same argument for Tom, Bill and Gil.


... It's not MY argument, but it gets brought up.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Well Ballybunion only became 18 holes in 1926 so it’s not that old.


Most of the “over the top” links holes on other courses were in decline by that point, having been designed out in the golden age. Actually, perhaps if we think about it, the golden age in GB&I was actually an era of quite conservative golf design. A lot of the outrageous stuff dates from before.

[Peter Pallotta]

Is 'over the top' similar to 'quirk' in that the old versions are better/better appreciated than the new ones, and that the 'by necessity' variety are more loved/valued than the 'intentional' ones?
Even around here, among the sophisticates, I'd be hard pressed to find modern examples of either quirk or 'over the top-ness' that have gotten much praise -- especially if they make for a harder/more challenging golf course. 
Isn't the famous example the 14th at Bandon Trails? Gee, that didn't take long to be changed. It's like the collective said: "We *love* Coore & Crenshaw -- but only when they are being absolutely Coore-and-Crenshaw-like".
Me: I'm not a fan of either quirk or over the top.


   


 

[Tom_Doak]

Even around here, among the sophisticates, I'd be hard pressed to find modern examples of either quirk or 'over the top-ness' that have gotten much praise
 

This is an excellent observation.  I will have to think about it for a while, but I think you are generally correct that what passes for modern critique of golf course design is very conservative -- things are very quickly labeled as unfair and there is pressure to change.


For that matter, a lot of clients - Mr. Keiser in particular - are quick to request changes in the dirt, even before the daring design makes it in front of the public eye.  This negates the chance that customers might LIKE the daring features and question the client's opinion of them.   

[Tom_Doak]

Tom-Do you think most players that are critical of your greens fall into A)Good players that three putt often and hence can’t match their handicaps or B) Regular players that constantly get on the wrong side of the hole and struggle? I love wild greens and regardless of the venue and or architect I lately have chalked up three putts to little more than a lack of skill on my part.

Tim:


Some golfers believe they are entitled to have a reasonably easy two-putt from anywhere on the green to any hole location.  The majority of them are good players who are keeping a close eye on their score, or at least guys who think they are good players.  They are the same players who will think it's unfair if a long approach shot must be played to a small green, or if any other feature of the course -- it's the card and pencil mindset that any feature which might interrupt their string of pars must be bad.


Bogey players generally don't feel the same way, because they are losing lots of strokes on their own.  But of course different people have different tastes, and some just don't like heavily contoured greens, no matter how or why.

[Thomas Dai]

Wouldn’t one example of ‘over-the-top’ courses laid out during the last few decades sit immediately adjacent to Ballybunion Old, namely the Cashen?
Atb

[Ira Fishman]

Is 'over the top' similar to 'quirk' in that the old versions are better/better appreciated than the new ones, and that the 'by necessity' variety are more loved/valued than the 'intentional' ones?
Even around here, among the sophisticates, I'd be hard pressed to find modern examples of either quirk or 'over the top-ness' that have gotten much praise -- especially if they make for a harder/more challenging golf course. 
Isn't the famous example the 14th at Bandon Trails? Gee, that didn't take long to be changed. It's like the collective said: "We *love* Coore & Crenshaw -- but only when they are being absolutely Coore-and-Crenshaw-like".
Me: I'm not a fan of either quirk or over the top.


   


 

Peter,


I am a huge fan of quirk. I do not understand the objections to blind shots or weird bounces on modern courses. I have not played many well regarded modern courses, but several of my favorite holes would qualify as "quirky". Several were done by Tom: 3 and 7 at Old Mac, 16 at PD, and 4 at Streamsong Blue. And I am a big fan of 14 at BT and 16 at Streamsong Red.


As far as Ballybunion goes, Numbers 12 and 16 push the edge of the envelope, but 12 is truly one of the great Par 3s. I only wish more modern courses would be "over the top" in such a way.


Ira

[Peter Pallotta]

Ira -
the failure is all mine, in not being able to appreciate either the quirk or the 'over the top'. Sad to think that I may have more in common with one of Tom's clients than with either Tom or you!
And I can't -- as I normally might with a taste/opinion of mine -- even try to explain it, let alone rationally defend it.
I think I'm very dull when it comes to my tastes in golf courses: most of all I just want 'quiet' out there on a golf course -- aesthetically, strategically, and aurally.
Peter

[Ira Fishman]

Ira -
the failure is all mine, in not being able to appreciate either the quirk or the 'over the top'. Sad to think that I may have more in common with one of Tom's clients than with either Tom or you!
And I can't -- as I normally might with a taste/opinion of mine -- even try to explain it, let alone rationally defend it.
I think I'm very dull when it comes to my tastes in golf courses: most of all I just want 'quiet' out there on a golf course -- aesthetically, strategically, and aurally.
Peter

Peter,


That is what is so great about gca--to each their own. But to clarify: I do not think quirk and over the top are the same thing. And I think over the top only works when it is not forced.


One more point: I think I remember that you like late Coltrane and O. Coleman. I do not because for me they are over the top.


Ira

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