[Bill_McBride]

There actually is a third possible reason - it doesn't matter what it costs ....

Craig:  that's (B) above in my view.  How can the cost of stuff not matter when you're broke?  What kind of la-la land leadership is that?


Money isn't the root of all evil.  Other people's money is the root of all evil.  Whether it's Washington or Wall Street, when people have free reign to saw through OPM, that's exactly what's gonna happen, every fricking time....

Are you suggesting we lay off a bunch of our military?

[Rick Shefchik]

    If golf is the window to a man's soul, then Boehner's a cheat and a crook.  Assuming Congressman Boehner is the same John Boehner who shows up when checking Ohio handicaps on GHIN, he's posted 20 scores since 6/09.  Yet it is reported here that he played 150 rounds this year.  What's up?

Reported by whom? The GHIN rounds are verified. The rest sounds a bit hyperbolic. I'm a free-lance writer and I play a lot of golf -- sometimes I hit a wall when I need to stop playing so often -- and I'm going to get in 75 rounds this year.

Boehner played 150? I doubt it was anything close to that.

[A.G._Crockett]

    If golf is the window to a man's soul, then Boehner's a cheat and a crook.  Assuming Congressman Boehner is the same John Boehner who shows up when checking Ohio handicaps on GHIN, he's posted 20 scores since 6/09.  Yet it is reported here that he played 150 rounds this year.  What's up?

Reported by whom? The GHIN rounds are verified. The rest sounds a bit hyperbolic. I'm a free-lance writer and I play a lot of golf -- sometimes I hit a wall when I need to stop playing so often -- and I'm going to get in 75 rounds this year.

Boehner played 150? I doubt it was anything close to that.

Rick,
I agree with you that 150 sounds like a huge number, but it would explain the tan...

[Craig Sweet]

I believe the biblical saying is "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil"

[cary lichtenstein]

Craig:  I don't think anybody disagrees with that.  

But when a guy who has forcefed a few trillion dollars of spending in less than 2 years takes a trip and some Indian official starts talking about $200MM a day and 40 planes and dozens of ships and 3000 people, I think it's not only reasonable but also necessary for the press to ask what this trip is gonna run us and get the facts.  Now, as I understand it, as of right now, the guy who promised the most transparent government in history, with everything down to the White House toilet paper decisions to be broadcast on C-SPAN, just won't say...about anything...the cost...the number of planes...the number of ships...the number of people...nuthin'.

This has to change.  Even if the cost is reasonable (and I have no idea what that is--$5MM?  $50MM? $100MM?  I have no idea)  and it's 5 planes and 3 ships and 200 people or whatever, ignoring the queston and stonewalling isn't just hypocritical or arrogant.  It's (dare I say it?) the type of thing that a totalitar....(nah, I won't say it...   ) despot would do.  

I have to agree with Shivas

[Craig Sweet]

Too funny...too frickin funny! The Obama hate machine is in high gear! There would not be a peep out Shivas, Hannity, Limbaugh, or any right wing nut job, if this was a Republican going to Asia on a trade mission. I am pretty sure that all the transparency in the world would not shut these people up...regardless of the cost of this trip.

Maybe this is all a distraction so we don't talk about the possible "free trade" implications that will surely come from this trip...can you say good bye American jobs? 

[Mike Sweeney]

Well, I'll address the last question first:  because I have no idea how to do that.  But I assure you somebody is doing it right now.

As to whether the information is classified, you drew the conclusion that it is.  I did not.  I have no basis in fact (at least yet, and certainly not from this Snopes article) that the cost is classified.  What I have is a statement that the details associated with security procedures and costs are classified.  Those are two very different things in the land where "jobs saved or created" and what the "definition of is is" are the tools of their trade ...

Shivas,

This is embarrassing. Somewhere back on page 8 I gave you some love for your predictions that Obama was just another politician. I actually said, "Shivas was right."

Please stop this.

To the Board:

Shivas is a very bright guy who gets off on creating controversy on this Board. I think debate (like I had with Dick Daley and Noel F) is healthy but this is silly. CNN is getting killed in the ratings these days because they do not take sides. Please watch Anderson Cooper to see the real story:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-mythbuster-cnn-debunks-alleged-cost-of-obamas-india-trip/

It is kind of a boring story. I think we need some more boring stories. I think it is impossible to protect all of us, but I do think that you can't put a price tag on protecting the President of the United States. I certainly disagree with many of his decisions, but I completely agree with the concept of this trip.

Let's go play a Doak 5 and be a little bored for the next two years. 

[Tim Leahy]

Oh...that's right... Rachael Maddow thinks of that kind of drivel...

And "pollutes" (your word, not mine) her viewers with it....daily. 

If you call the truth pollution then keep watching fox news and stay ignorant.

[Dan King]

Shivas writes:
Now, as I understand it, as of right now, the guy who promised the most transparent government in history, with everything down to the White House toilet paper decisions to be broadcast on C-SPAN, just won't say...about anything...the cost...the number of planes...the number of ships...the number of people...nuthin'.

The fact you think the administration should respond to every silly Internet or Fox rumor says a lot more about you than it does about Obama. You even admit the rumor is silly and bogus, but still feel the administration should take the time to respond anyway.

Cheers,
Dan King

I think those of you that regularly exercise — playing softball, baseball, basketball, soccer, mountain biking, running, rock climbing, skiing, skating, running — you’re the people getting injured. You’re the people showing up at the hospital with busted knees and tendons and skin cancer, ankle sprains, knee and hip replacements, broken bones, concussions, muscle, ligament, tendon, cartilage strains and tears, tendinitis, rotator cuff tears. All you exercise freaks, you’re the ones putting stress on the health care system.
 —Rush Limbaugh

[Jud_T]

Maybe this is all a distraction so we don't talk about the possible "free trade" implications that will surely come from this trip...can you say good bye American jobs?  

This has got to be one of the dumbest statements on this entire thread.  Next you'll be saying that we should only play golf courses that are designed, built and staffed by folks born and bred in the good 'ole US of A.....I suggest you pick up a copy of "Economics for Dummies" tomorrow on your way back from the Sandal Schlepping Candle Shop....

[Craig Sweet]

Free trade essentially means Amwrican workers compete for jobs in a global market for global wages...

[PThomas]

Well, I'll address the last question first:  because I have no idea how to do that.  But I assure you somebody is doing it right now.

As to whether the information is classified, you drew the conclusion that it is.  I did not.  I have no basis in fact (at least yet, and certainly not from this Snopes article) that the cost is classified.  What I have is a statement that the details associated with security procedures and costs are classified.  Those are two very different things in the land where "jobs saved or created" and what the "definition of is is" are the tools of their trade ...

Shivas,

This is embarrassing. Somewhere back on page 8 I gave you some love for your predictions that Obama was just another politician. I actually said, "Shivas was right."

Please stop this.

To the Board:

Shivas is a very bright guy who gets off on creating controversy on this Board. I think debate (like I had with Dick Daley and Noel F) is healthy but this is silly. CNN is getting killed in the ratings these days because they do not take sides. Please watch Anderson Cooper to see the real story:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-mythbuster-cnn-debunks-alleged-cost-of-obamas-india-trip/

It is kind of a boring story. I think we need some more boring stories. I think it is impossible to protect all of us, but I do think that you can't put a price tag on protecting the President of the United States. I certainly disagree with many of his decisions, but I completely agree with the concept of this trip.

Let's go play a Doak 5 and be a little bored for the next two years. 

i agree with Mike...the civil tone has disappeared from this debate so it should be ended

[A.G._Crockett]

Free trade essentially means Amwrican workers compete for jobs in a global market for global wages...

Actually, in Econ class, it means that we produce the goods for which we have the lowest opportunity cost and trade for the goods for which our opportunity cost is higher.  So, for example, we grow cotton, but we trade for cotton shirts.  We get more shirts and more of other goods as well.  The result is a higher standard of living, which is why every president for the last eon has pursued free trade policies.

But I'm guessing that nobody wants to come to GCA.com for Econ class, so I'll let it go at that.

[Paul_Turner]

Are US clubs trying the much less expensive UK model?  i.e. green fee income, no compulsory caddies, scruffier courses and amenities, less staff and ultimately about double the membership with a fraction of the membership fee.

[Phil McDade]

Are US clubs trying the much less expensive UK model?  i.e. green fee income, no compulsory caddies, scruffier courses and amenities, less staff and ultimately about double the membership with a fraction of the membership fee.

Paul:

That's an interesting observation. It seems that much of public golf in the U.S. in the past two decades (by that I mean daily fee courses) has been an attempt to replicate the private-club experience. Go to the Kohler courses here in Wisconsin, or the high-end resorts like Bandon and others, and there is an attempt to replicate the private-club experience largely through improved service, availability of caddies, luxury clubhouses and locker rooms -- all of which have up-front capital costs and on-going labor costs. Many courses even market themselves this way.

Without getting into an entirely different debate, there's little doubt that one of the more successful companies in the U.S. in the past two decades or so has been Wal-Mart, and I've always wondered why selective consumer-oriented businesses (meaning, you don't have to purchase the thing) like golf courses don't follow their lead -- basic goods, nominal service, with a hyper-focus on pricing, and profits based on volume. I see a few course in my neck of the woods moving this way (one local 9-holer -- a scruffy little thing, but a golf course with greens and mown fairways and traps -- has $5 rounds all year round), but not as many as I expected. Maybe more will follow if the economy continues its slow drag.

[Rick Sides]

 "It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of
the foreign world."  George Washington

Think of the hundreds of billions of dollars our country could have saved if we heeded the advice of Washington!

[Cliff Hamm]

Are US clubs trying the much less expensive UK model?  i.e. green fee income, no compulsory caddies, scruffier courses and amenities, less staff and ultimately about double the membership with a fraction of the membership fee.

The Maine courses come to mind.  To some extent Prout's Neck but more so Cape Arundel.  Great layout, no service and that's a good thing, basic clubhouse without dining, and outside play allowed at certain hours.  It is unfortunate that this is by far the exception.

[Dan King]

Shivas writes:
The origin of the story is irrelevant.

Of course it is relevant. There is a rumor mill working around the clock to come up with more and more bizarre stories about the president and his administration. The same was true with the last administration. Run the country, don't worry about the crazies. They are insignificant. Even Shivas joining the crazies in this case doesn't make the silliness any more serious.

I can claim Bo isn't a true American dog but was born in Portugal. Blogs and news source could pick up my rumor and publish it, but still the administration should not spend a single minute responding to my crazy rumor. It doesn't take any sort of intelligence to know the report of the cost of the Indian trip has just as much basis in fact as my Bo rumor. 

I think there should be complete transparency. I think any trip a president or congressperson or any other elected official takes should include a price tag. I believe every dollar the Pentagon spends should be posted on a Web site somewhere. They are spending our money and we have a right to know how. Transparency should be the law, not just responding to every kook who has a blog and a bug up their ass.

Cheers,
Dan King

Nobody believes a rumor here in Washington until it's officially denied.
 --Edward Cheyfitz

[A.G._Crockett]

"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of
the foreign world."  George Washington

Think of the hundreds of billions of dollars our country could have saved if we heeded the advice of Washington!

We wouldn't even have had to go all in on that advice.  It would have worked if we could have just avoided backing bad guys like Saddam and the Shah because it suited very, very short term interests.

[Buck Wolter]

Here's the British take on the trip:

Probably not since the days of the Pharaohs or the more ludicrous Roman Emperors has a head of state travelled in such pomp and expensive grandeur as the President of the United States of America....

As to the cost of all this, the White House will not reveal details – which has allowed Mr Obama’s political foes to bandy about sums including a widely-quoted $200million (£123million) a day. Whatever the figure, it makes the costs associated with the Royal Train and the late Royal Yacht Britannia seem like small change.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1326962/Obamas-India-visit-security-erect-bomb-proof-tunnel-Gandhi-museum.html#ixzz14Wpgj4B8


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1326962/Obamas-India-visit-security-erect-bomb-proof-tunnel-Gandhi-museum.html

[Terry Lavin]

Ah, I hear the whirring of the backpedaling...

[Dan King]

Shivas writes:
Was it initially believeable that the President of the United States once had a secret goon squad breaking into the Watergate building and covering it up and secretly taping conversations?  

If the Washington Post  had immediately reported after the break-in that Nixon was involved he would have had every reason to ignore the report. They didn't just throw crap against a wall just to see what sticks. They actually did investigative reporting. It wasn't until after a tremendous amount of work that the link between the break-in and the president was established and then the president had to respond.

Was it believable that the PResident of the United States was getting BJs under the desk while he was on international conference calls?

Even that had a bunch more investigation than this silly India story.

The press needs to ask questions when "dubious" reports come to light.  That's what they DO.

No. They need to investigate dubious reports, not just repeat them. Journalism is in financial trouble and what went away was investigative reporting. Newspapers still need to fill up pages. Instead of investigative reporting they just repeat every silly rumor that comes up. The administration would be crazy to respond to every silly rumor.  

And when the legitimate press asks the question, the White House (or any division of government, for that matter) has an obligation to answer.

And who is this legitimate press you speak of? Drudge? Fox? MSNBC? Huff report? Moveon.org? CQ? NYTimes?

And even in situations where they don't have such an obligation, they'd be FOOLS not to - because the cover up is always worse than the crime.

They would be fools to spend anytime on every crazy rumor ever reported. I'm already feeling foolish for being involved in discussing the silly India rumors. I'm hoping you are also feeling foolish for ever bringing it up.

Cheers,
Dan King

Nature abhors a vacuum but why do most people hasten to fill in the blanks with garbage?
 --Vanna Bonta

[Gary Daughters]

Shivas, here's how it works.  Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity look for and find any flimsly pretext to attack any democrat who happens to be in the White House.  That the current one is black only makes it that much more fun.  They drum up this nonsense and then folks like CNN latch on because it's "out there."  We are spared sideshows of such hideous stupidy when a Republican's in the White House because, obviously, it doesn't fit Fox's clever agenda to go there.

[Dan King]

Shivas writes:
What do you think asking the White House constitutes?  That's called investigating, my friend!  You go to the best source you know of.

"As a White House reporter, your new job is just to stand up and ask the White House every crazy rumor that comes up. Don't worry about doing any other investigation, just repeat the rumor."

May not be very rewarding, but it will be a lot easier (and thankfully for the business of newspapers: cheaper.)

You only do the Woodward & Bernstein routine once the best source you have stonewalls you, so you have to find another...

You are so wrong my young friend. Rumors require investigation. If every time you heard one of these crazy rumors you questioned your WH sources you will not have WH sources for long.

You and I both agree the India story was bogus and silly. If there were legitimate reasons to question the cost of the India trip then they should be asked. Are there? As I have said, I'm all for every elected official itemizing every trip they take. But until such a law is passed, the WH would be crazy to respond to the rumor mill.

The WH did the right thing belittling the silly rumor. Creating rumors is much easier than dispelling them and I don't want the WH spending time despellling the huge number of rumors generated by the rumor mill.

The WH needs to do their job and let the crazys have their way in their little self-contained world. Americans in general are smarter than the crazys.

How much time do you think the WH should spend proving where the President was born? His religion? His education? Michelle's feelings toward the U.S.? His relationship to Bill Ayers? His Dad's influence? etc...  

Cheers,
Dan King

The only reason this country is different from any place else is that once in a great while, this huge, snobbish, generally untalented news reporting business stops covering stories of interest only to itself and actually serves the public.
 --Jimmy Breslin

[RJ_Daley]

I know I said I was out of this stupid thread.  But it just galls me that Shivas can't even stick to this semi OT political threads original subject, and sees GCA.com as his personal playground to flog this President, and bluster all his rt wing echo chamber ideologies, and folks keep engaging him.  It is now descended into nothing but a school yard crybaby fools discussion to debate the cost of a trip that mimics trips every President has made many times to conduct foreign policy and trade missions.  It is just beyond stupid to allow someone like Shivas who is so obviously motivated to stir any pot to cast ill against this President that it should be just as embarrassing to engage him further.  He is truly become the Michele Bachmann of this website and aninternet troll for political rt wing agitation.

Just for starters, if you imply that 1/10th of the navy and numerous support aircraft and all the military personel are somehow a huge extra cost; did it ever occur to anyone that the military is paid salary, and those ships, aircraft carrier and planes are deployed anyway, and work those days regardless of if they are supporting a Presidential mission or doing their regular chores, duties, flying training or other sorties and missions be it hauling supplies to some general's fat ass to a golf match?  The only extra cost in any of the military or airforce one, is the fuel.  All those people are paid the same on the day they fly the Prez to the day they show up to take briefiings or any mundane activity.  So, that leave you with cost of hotel and food on perdiems.  These are gov salaried people, and they don't get overtime for this sort of stuff!!! 

Shivas has posted 23 times in just the last three pages nattering about this stuff, and is allowed to ramble on.  And to think, Ran was going to run a tighter ship! 

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