The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if

[Jeff Loh]

Dick Fuld and Stan O'neal demonized??
Say it aint so!

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have always said the strength and weakness of this discussion group is that you never know where threads will go.

To lose that is probably a bigger problem than OT topics.  Just MHO.

Or, to relate it back to Pat's original premise, which may be secretly what he was hoping we would catch on to, maybe he is saying that like our country, this website doesn't need any more regulation from the top.  Thus, its a very relevant topic.

[Mike Sweeney]

Or, to relate it back to Pat's original premise, which may be secretly what he was hoping we would catch on to, maybe he is saying that like our country, this website doesn't need any more regulation from the top.  Thus, its a very relevant topic.

Jeff

No way is Mucci that sharp!  However, I have to say that was a nice tie in by you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam - you're absolutely right.  The topic is fine and related to GCA.

Oh come on Dan.

It is two weeks from the election and Patrick is frustrated.

I'm not frustrated at all.

I've lived a good life and certainly can't do anything to influence any election.

But, I see club after club struggling, some about to go out of business.
The enactment of these provisions would be the catalyst that hastens their demise

It may have something to do with golf clubs, but it has nothing to do with golf course architecture.
It has everything to do with GCA.
If those clubs cease to exist, then, like LIDO, so will their courses.

I go with the Huckaby theory that this is how things roll around here, but lets stop the nonsense that this is architecture related.

It's not nonsense, it's reality.

Patrick post on ND/college football threads too.
Would you show me just ONE thread on College Football that I started

The fact that he embraces the GCA double standard only increases his standing around here.

Mike, you're beloved Hidden Creek would suffer dearly if these deductions are lost.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dick Fuld and Stan O'neal demonized??
Say it aint so!

BP was villified, as was the CEO.
Should every CEO and carrier be villified every time an airliner has an accident ?

Should the Commander in Chief be villified and held accountable for every combat error, every mistep by every soldier ?

But, we digress.

The fact is that the anti-business environment in Washington is unprecedented.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike Sweeny,

That is what I am here for - to save Pat's ass and roast David Moriarity's!  No, won't go there, its a kinder, gentler gca.com and I like DM's John Deere casket photo too much!

BTW, I read in an industry mag that land banking for new gc developments is underway this year, in preparation for the next round of development.  However, the author noted that new club members probably won't pay a dime for luxuries, specifically mentioning waterfalls.  I suspect overwrought clubhouses and signature design fees may be on the chopping block as well, together with wall to wall watering, but that is only my speculation.

In short, all the guys calling for minimalism can rest easy....where protest won't do it, simple economics will, at least according to one well informed source.

See, I will stop at no end to make this OT thread relevant to gca! (and save PM's ass)

[David_Tepper]

That $1 trillion we flushed down the drain in Iraq sure would come in handy right about now!  

[David_Elvins]

The fact is that the anti-business environment in Washington is unprecedented.[/color]

I don't know if this is a true fact or not, but given what large businesses have done to the US economy over the last five-ten years, wouldn't it be prudent for a government not to be pro-business?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

That $1 trillion we flushed down the drain in Iraq sure would come in handy right about now!  

David, I'd sure like to have that trillion and the trillion we flushed down the drain on the Stimulus package back in our pockets.

[David_Tepper]

"The fact is that the anti-business environment in Washington is unprecedented."

Pat -

Go back and read some of Teddy Roosevelt's speeches. What we are seeing and reading today is small potatoes.

DT

[David_Tepper]

"I'd sure like to have that trillion and the trillion we flushed down the drain on the Stimulus package back in our pockets."

Pat -

Almost all the TARP money has been paid back, with a profit to the government.

DT

[Mike Sweeney]

But, I see club after club struggling, some about to go out of business.
The enactment of these provisions would be the catalyst that hastens their demise
[/color]
It may have something to do with golf clubs, but it has nothing to do with golf course architecture.
It has everything to do with GCA.
If those clubs cease to exist, then, like LIDO, so will their courses.

Patrick,

Lido went out of business because of its 400 room "clubhouse" and the high cost associated with it. See Bobby Ginn in Florida.

Fishers Island almost did not make it but they torched the big old clubhouse and it got replaced with a smaller one.

Mountain Lake's was small enough of a clubhouse that they got through it.

Please tell us how clubhouses too big for member support other than at the top of the market (which you have yelled about for years on here) have anything to do with golf course architecture or the government taxing them?

Market forces correct and Lido GC is still there, it is now just a muni built by RTJ on the bay rather than the ocean.

[William_G]

Haven't writers stated in the past that the golf industry needs contraction?  

I sympathize heavily with Pat's political sentiment in the thread.  Lower government regulation is better, in general.  However, I don't see how the lack of growth in private clubs is a problem.  It is often said that the best time to start a business is in the worst of economic times, because if a business can survive then, it will survive always.  Couldn't the same be said of private clubs?

Furthermore, didn't the situation look much worse in the 1930s, when the standard of living in this country was much, much lower than it is now.  Economic downturn or not, Americans live more luxurious lifestyles than any people in history.  Whether that is the key to happiness is a different question.

By the way guys, this thread bears relation to GCA.  It's only the overtly political responses to the original question that have no place here.

I agree, our lifestyles are definitely luxurious by any standard. Just 150 years ago we were evicting Native Americans from the area around Bandon Dunes!

[Patrick_Mucci]

"I'd sure like to have that trillion and the trillion we flushed down the drain on the Stimulus package back in our pockets."

Pat -

Almost all the TARP money has been paid back, with a profit to the government.

I don't believe that's true.
Would you list the TARP money paid out, and the TARP money paid back.
I think you'll see that it's a far cry from "almost all"

And I don't believe that TARP had anything to do with the Stimulus package.
TARP was started under Bush, the Stimulus package was initiated under Obama

DT

[David_Tepper]

Pat -

Read this article re: repayment of TARP funds:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Wall-Street-Bailout-Returns-bloomberg-2879796906.html?x=0

DT

[Patrick_Mucci]

But, I see club after club struggling, some about to go out of business.
The enactment of these provisions would be the catalyst that hastens their demise
[/color]
It may have something to do with golf clubs, but it has nothing to do with golf course architecture.
It has everything to do with GCA.
If those clubs cease to exist, then, like LIDO, so will their courses.

Patrick,

Lido went out of business because of its 400 room "clubhouse" and the high cost associated with it. See Bobby Ginn in Florida.
I know why LIDO went out of business, the fact is, it no longer exists due to economic reasons.
The same will hold true if membership decline is hastened by changes in the tax laaw affecting individulals.
Don't forget that tax rates are going considerably higher in 2011 and if combined with the loss of mortgage-interest and the other two, will have a calamitous impact on the survivability of clubs/courses
If the government continues to spend and tax, leaving less disposable income, clubs will cease to exist

Fishers Island almost did not make it but they torched the big old clubhouse and it got replaced with a smaller one.

Mountain Lake's was small enough of a clubhouse that they got through it.

Please tell us how clubhouses too big for member support other than at the top of the market (which you have yelled about for years on here) have anything to do with golf course architecture or the government taxing them?

It's very simple.
It's not about clubhouses, it's about operating expenses and debt at clubs.
When you diminish the amount of disposable income available to members, those members will cease being members, leading to the demise of the club and the golf course.  Surely, even a BC Grad understands that.

Market forces correct and Lido GC is still there, it is now just a muni built by RTJ on the bay rather than the ocean.

It's NOT there, an imposter, an off the shelf  product took its place

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat -

Read this article re: repayment of TARP funds:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Wall-Street-Bailout-Returns-bloomberg-2879796906.html?x=0

I read the article.

$ 103,000,000,000 in unpaid funds is hardly "almost all",  a full one third remains outstanding.

And, TARP had NOTHING to do with the Stimulus package of one trillion or so dollars.

[Mike Sweeney]

Pat -

Read this article re: repayment of TARP funds:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Wall-Street-Bailout-Returns-bloomberg-2879796906.html?x=0

DT

Goodness knows I need to go to bed but like many discussions on here we are in apples and oranges land on GCA.

The TARP was a note to the banks, which was repaid - depending on which accountant you use. Cars seem to be going in a better direction too, and that was a note.

The Stimulus was basically an investment in the USA which we hope will pay off in long term growth of the economy where we capture increased tax revenues from that growth aka it is an equity investment that we are waiting on..... You pay out additional unemployment benefits hoping that workers spend the money on re-training and get hired in a new industry to keep it simple. I think it is fair to say that it is working very very slowly (if at all) with employment at a still very high levels.

[David_Elvins]

Patrick,

What course of action should the government take to ensure the future of golf clubs and country clubs?

[Mike Sweeney]

I know why LIDO went out of business, the fact is, it no longer exists due to economic reasons.
The same will hold true if membership decline is hastened by changes in the tax laaw affecting individulals.
Don't forget that tax rates are going considerably higher in 2011 and if combined with the loss of mortgage-interest and the other two, will have a calamitous impact on the survivability of clubs/courses
If the government continues to spend and tax, leaving less disposable income, clubs will cease to exist[/color]

Pat,

The economic reasons were it was a bad bet at the top of the market. The clubhouse opened in the Spring of 1928 aka 18 months or so before the stock market crash.

It was a bad bet, not a government taxing issue.

It happens in a free market.

When the mortgage-interest deduction is repealed in this country, I will move to the couch of Fat Baldy Drummer in Scotland. 

You live in the land of Chris Christy, have some faith!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

What course of action should the government take to ensure the future of golf clubs and country clubs?

David Elvins,

I'm not worried about the future of golf/country clubs IN America.

I'm worried about the future OF America.

I'm worried about the future of my children and grandchildren.

But, since you asked a tangential question, I'll give you my answer for the FEDERAL, STATE, COUNTY and MUNICIPAL governments.

1.   REDUCE SPENDING
2.   INCREASE TAXES
3.   SEAL OUR BORDERS and REGULATE LEGAL IMMIGRATION
4.   CREATE an ENVIRONMENT THAT  ENCOURAGES BUSINESS AND THE CREATION OF JOBS
5.   IMPLEMENT TERM LIMITS
6.   REFORM ELECTION FINANCE

[David_Elvins]

Patrick,

What course of action should the government take to ensure the future of golf clubs and country clubs?

David Elvins,

I'm not worried about the future of golf/country clubs IN America.

I'm worried about the future OF America.

I'm worried about the future of my children and grandchildren.

But, since you asked a tangential question, I'll give you my answer for the FEDERAL, STATE, COUNTY and MUNICIPAL governments.

1.   REDUCE SPENDING
2.   INCREASE TAXES
3.   SEAL OUR BORDERS and REGULATE LEGAL IMMIGRATION
4.   CREATE an ENVIRONMENT THAT  ENCOURAGES BUSINESS AND THE CREATION OF JOBS
5.   IMPLEMENT TERM LIMITS
6.   REFORM ELECTION FINANCE

Thanks Pat,  how is your plea to increase taxes consistent with your opening post?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

As much as most would like to see Campaign Finance Reform enacted, it will be difficult to do in light of the recent Supreme Court decision:

http://www.oyez.org/cases/2000-2009/2008/2008_08_205

[David_Elvins]

..

[Jeff Goldman]

The problem with saying that it is "the political replies" that are out of bounds, rather than Pat's original post is that this statment takes it as a given that Patrick's original claims are true. In fact, they are rubbish, both as economic analysis and GCA.