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Noel Freeman

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #350 on: November 02, 2010, 11:14:41 AM »
Pat Mucci -

As Rob Bice has quoted above:

5.  Home ownership in the US is roughly the same as it is in Canada, Australia and England where mortgage interest is not deductible

Perhaps what got us into the this mess in the first place is that too many people starting thinking of their homes as "business" and not just a place to live. The fact is that, up until the past 15-20 years, the prices of residential real estate (in the country as a whole) barely kept up with inflation and owning a home was a mediocre investment at best.

DT

Is this a joke?

You're comparing America to Canada, England and Australia, and implying that they don't allow a mortgage interest dediction...

That's because they're basically socialist nations with massively progressive taxes and (not surprisingly) giganticly upside-down economies!

Of course they don't allow mortgage interest deductions. It's a miracle they allow any of their citizens to keep any of their income at all...and THESE are the countries we're supposed to be taking the lead from?  LOL!  

Its uninfomed/uneducated comments like this which help turn people off to the US and make it easy to accuse Americans of being clueless of what happens outside of its borders.  Its also a reason why I find it difficult to read these sorts of threads which are invariably tainted by party/ideological politics (which is especially ironic since there is no real left or right in the States) and folks with short term memories spouting off.

As to Mucci's theory of the White House succeeding in the elimination of the deduction for mortgage-interest, child tax credits and deductions for employees to pay for their health insurance premium contributions leading to the closure of golf clubs - I doubt it.

The fact is, the baby boomer generation has the US government and a high percentage of households in huge debt.  The single best thing the government can do to help the country is to devise a sensible budget which is balanced and attacks debt.  Until that is seen as the number one priority, the problems caused by over extension of the government will continue.  The important issue of personal debt is something I have no clue as to how it should be resolved or if it is possible to do so.  However, I hope credit for the unqualified is never as cheap as we have seen these past 15 years. 

Ciao  

You know Sean, I've spent about 1+ year of my life in the UK and been there on the order of 60+ times.  I do not believe this statement about Americans because outside of the loathing of the BBC intellegensia, your average Brit is as uninformed as your average American, you just get more foreigners over there because of its proximity to Europe..  I read recently the UK is a combination communist state and hedge fund.  Realistically, it is.. London survives on banking due to Middle East and Russian money.  The country produces nothing outside of some defence arms and government spending.  All spending especially in the midlands and the North I believe comes from the centrally planned economy of the government.. Churchill and Maggie must be crying.. But again, I don't think the UK or many other countries are as well informed as you think, that is a myth.

But then again, I will say I gag when I read about Americans who think the world is 10k old..

Love DEAL!!! promote tourism my friend, hire Chappers to be tourist minister!

Bill_McBride

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #351 on: November 02, 2010, 11:23:37 AM »
Sean,

I am one of those who think debt is the biggest driver of economic conditions, so I agree with you.   And, I believe the record shows that both parties in the US have simply ignored fiscal reality to get the votes of the baby boomer generation, so perhaps we have no one but own selves to blame, albeit it does seem like its tough to fight city hall.

The saddest part is that I know at least one person on the inside, and he says its impossible to fix as the system sits right now.  No one has the will to stop spending (again, mostly because most of us still like the idea of free stuff other people pay for more than fiscal reponsibility)  Even the Tea Party friends of mine who decree Obamacare eventually say something like "I got my knee replacement for $10 co-pay and now its going to cost me over $1000!!"  Of course part of any health care reform is to have us pay more out of pocket, because the govt. can't afford to keep paying it.

However, you don't get elected by preaching doom and gloom either (see Jimmy Carter and "economic malaise") so they keep spending, and passing more programs that are basically based on our Leave it to Beaver image of America that has been slipping away for decades.

I am off to vote now!

Between interest on the debt, Social Security, Medicare and the defense budget, there is very little room to cut spending, so that statement isn't far off.  Growthn in tax receipts is the shortest distance to balancing the budget, but the political class is in a no investment, no growth mode.

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #352 on: November 02, 2010, 11:28:18 AM »

When you're taking 45 or 50 cents on the dollar, without deductions, that's de facto socialism - the government takes more of your income than you do, i.e., everybody is essentially a government employee.  Then, of course, there's the seemingly mandatory screw-the-successful structure of these tax systems, where the folks who actually earn a decent buck are the ones who get soaked.  You think that's not socialism?  I've got news for you - there are tens of millions of people voting right now in America who think otherwise... 





I didn't know Nixon and Eisenhower were socialists, in fact probably raving commies.

Shivas, you are a nutcase. You need to start back on that medication.

Tim Pitner

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #353 on: November 02, 2010, 11:36:16 AM »
And like I said, this cuts both ways.  It's the same whether it's the right or the left.  And the reason they get pissed is that this is not democracy; it's totalitarianism.

"Totalitarianism"--please, Shivas, revisit your history.  Thankfully, what's going on in the U.S., even if the Tea Party demagogues took over, does not approach totalitarianism. 

Sean_A

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #354 on: November 02, 2010, 11:39:31 AM »
Pat Mucci -

As Rob Bice has quoted above:

5.  Home ownership in the US is roughly the same as it is in Canada, Australia and England where mortgage interest is not deductible

Perhaps what got us into the this mess in the first place is that too many people starting thinking of their homes as "business" and not just a place to live. The fact is that, up until the past 15-20 years, the prices of residential real estate (in the country as a whole) barely kept up with inflation and owning a home was a mediocre investment at best.

DT

Is this a joke?

You're comparing America to Canada, England and Australia, and implying that they don't allow a mortgage interest dediction...

That's because they're basically socialist nations with massively progressive taxes and (not surprisingly) giganticly upside-down economies!

Of course they don't allow mortgage interest deductions. It's a miracle they allow any of their citizens to keep any of their income at all...and THESE are the countries we're supposed to be taking the lead from?  LOL!  

Its uninfomed/uneducated comments like this which help turn people off to the US and make it easy to accuse Americans of being clueless of what happens outside of its borders.  Its also a reason why I find it difficult to read these sorts of threads which are invariably tainted by party/ideological politics (which is especially ironic since there is no real left or right in the States) and folks with short term memories spouting off.

As to Mucci's theory of the White House succeeding in the elimination of the deduction for mortgage-interest, child tax credits and deductions for employees to pay for their health insurance premium contributions leading to the closure of golf clubs - I doubt it.

The fact is, the baby boomer generation has the US government and a high percentage of households in huge debt.  The single best thing the government can do to help the country is to devise a sensible budget which is balanced and attacks debt.  Until that is seen as the number one priority, the problems caused by over extension of the government will continue.  The important issue of personal debt is something I have no clue as to how it should be resolved or if it is possible to do so.  However, I hope credit for the unqualified is never as cheap as we have seen these past 15 years.  

Ciao  

You know Sean, I've spent about 1+ year of my life in the UK and been there on the order of 60+ times.  I do not believe this statement about Americans because outside of the loathing of the BBC intellegensia, your average Brit is as uninformed as your average American, you just get more foreigners over there because of its proximity to Europe..  I read recently the UK is a combination communist state and hedge fund.  Realistically, it is.. London survives on banking due to Middle East and Russian money.  The country produces nothing outside of some defence arms and government spending.  All spending especially in the midlands and the North I believe comes from the centrally planned economy of the government.. Churchill and Maggie must be crying.. But again, I don't think the UK or many other countries are as well informed as you think, that is a myth.

But then again, I will say I gag when I read about Americans who think the world is 10k old..

Love DEAL!!! promote tourism my friend, hire Chappers to be tourist minister!

Tuco

As in the US (think of the UK as 15 years ahead of the US), the UK has long had unofficial policies of abandoning its manufacturing base.  Its a consequence of buying cheap imports.  The consumer makes his choice, but doesn't factor into the price the cost of his children's future.  What a deal eh, cheap t-shirts and plastic gizmos for hundreds of thousands of jobs.  I have long said the US and the UK (governments and consumers) will rue the decision not to support domestic manufacturing.  Eventually governmnets will figure out that consumption follows employment and the best consumption is when workers are buying their own products.  Its basic stuff that dopey financial guys have been denying my entire llifetime.  Its right up there with oil shortages detremined by...oil companies...how convenient.    

Other than controlling ownership in a few banks (bail out of the capitalists tee hee), the UK has divested itself from nearly all its publicly held companies.  The UK is no more communist than the US.  In terms of its tax/welfare structure the UK is more socialist than the US for sure, but this isn't a bad thing especially where health care is concerned (which is by far the biggest hit in welfare).  Hopefully, the US will move more toward a health care system which does a better job of providing...wait for it...health care for all, but thats just me, a wild risk taker who likes to see his taxes spent on people.  Hell, the government is even divesting itself from district, county and regional politics, but that has more to do with being broke than any sort of ideological underpinning.  

You could be right about Brits and stupidity, but that doesn't let Americans off a rather much larger hook.  

Yes, Chappers should have a special seat in the cabinet devoted to specialized promotion of tourism.  

Shivas

You will get no argument from that taxes in the UK are too high.  You will also get no argument that taxes in the US are too high.  At what percentage of tax is a government considered socialist?  Some might say 10% and some 50%.  I start at 0% and work on what sort of services are offered for my money.  So far, after having lived in Nederland, Germany, Israel, Japan, US and England, I am unimpressed with all the governments' spending levels/tax/services - call me cheap.  But, I have felt the least safe in the US/Israel and the least protected in terms of social safety net/health care in the US.  That sort of social care costs money that I am very happy to be taxed for, but I haven't a clue what is a reasonable price.   

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 11:56:00 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Martin Toal

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #355 on: November 02, 2010, 11:39:54 AM »


Martin:  nobody, I repeat, nobody paid the top marginal tax rates under Nixon or Eisenhower.   Those 70% and 90% top marginal tax rates are the ultimate red herring.  That was a starting point for deductions, and deductions were everywhere!  Sheltering income was unbelievably easy to do and NOBODY with income anywhere near the top marginal rates WASN'T sheltering huge percentages of their gross income.  It was an entire industry unto itself.   

Maybe or maybe not, but the principle of high marginal tax rates was, as you might say, de facto accepted.

I am also sure you don't condone tax avoidance.

The UK is not a socialist country, and really hasn't been in more than 30 years.

The Tea Party mob are highly entertaining though. They know they are mad as hell and not going to take it anymore, but they are just not sure exactly what they are mad at, and what should be done instead. They are generating a lot more heat than light.

Terry Lavin

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #356 on: November 02, 2010, 11:40:35 AM »
take it to politico.com
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Rory Connaughton

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #357 on: November 02, 2010, 11:44:10 AM »
Sean

  To take your point regarding governmental support of the manufacturing base, I have always found it strange that we have allowed it to complete erode.  Forget economics, one would think that a major component of any national security agenda would be to control the means of production.

Michael Dugger

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #358 on: November 02, 2010, 11:47:16 AM »
Sean

  To take your point regarding governmental support of the manufacturing base, I have always found it strange that we have allowed it to complete erode.  Forget economics, one would think that a major component of any national security agenda would be to control the means of production.

Well, I think most of the bomb, bullets, night vision goggles and fighter jets are still made domestically, so we are fine there!
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Don_Mahaffey

Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #359 on: November 02, 2010, 11:52:07 AM »
I find it very tough to listen to the right rail against Obama's spending when they were mostly silent while Bush and a GOP congress spent like a drunken sailor.

i find it very tough to listen to the left defend Obama when for the most part he's failed to do most everything he promised, especially change the way DC operates.

RJ you can insult, tease, call stupid, and plug in any other insult you want against tea party types, but most are just sick and tired of getting lied to by both sides. The left's continued inference that anyone who dare disagree with them is somehow dumb or misguided will come home to roost in a big way. If not today, soon.

Sean_A

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #360 on: November 02, 2010, 12:03:00 PM »
In terms of its tax/welfare structure the UK is more socialist than the US for sure...

Ciao

So I guess those cracks you made about "uninfomed/uneducated comments like this" and "folks with short term memories spouting off" are off the table, now, eh?   ;)

Shivas

I never claimed that Euro countries are not more socialist leaning than the US, but socialist?  I don't think so.  Besides, if the US ACTUALLY paid for what its government spent, your taxes would be leaning more toward your idea of a socialist percentage.  But Americans have long been hung up on the boogie men Mr Socialism and Mr Communism when they should be paying attention to Mr Bankrupcy.  

Rory

We threw the baby out with the bath water in the main because of some union problems and poor quality product.  Instead of fixing it we went to Asia for cheap products and we still are.  If either of our governments had any stomach for doing the right thing for our countries they would have banned trade with China until we could compare on an apples and apples comparison.  But I spose it was easier to elected when t-shirts cost $3.   

Ciao  
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 12:08:00 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Lang

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #361 on: November 02, 2010, 12:31:46 PM »
 8) Shivas, when i did somewhat same.. running through my first bank account, i got a job!  Then I started spending a little more conservatively as that fica guy took a bunch of my money.. ::)
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Phil McDade

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #362 on: November 02, 2010, 12:41:58 PM »
8) Shivas, when i did somewhat same.. running through my first bank account, i got a job!  Then I started spending a little more conservatively as that fica guy took a bunch of my money.. ::)

Steve:

I still fondly recall my son excitedly bringing home his first real paycheck -- when he was all of 14 -- and wondering where part of his hard-earned money went. "Who's this FICA guy?" he asked.

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #363 on: November 02, 2010, 12:45:53 PM »
Sure Michael but what about steel?  ???

Tim Leahy

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #364 on: November 02, 2010, 01:48:27 PM »
They know they are mad as hell and not going to take it anymore, but they are just not sure exactly what they are mad at, and what should be done instead.

They know exactly what they're mad at and they know exactly what they want done, Martin.  That said, liberal attempts to discredit the intelligence of conservative populists have a long history in this country, my friend, so your statement is nothing new.  

But if you really want to discredit the intelligence of a voting block, you might want to look at some of the minions who vote for whomever the SEIU tells them to as they steal more of their union dues to spend on inaccurate character assasinations of anybody they disagree with.  



If it wasn't for the SEIU getting behind the real people's candidates like Brown and Boxer in Cali the people would never hear the truth from billionaire's like Meg and Carly that try to buy an election just to get tax breaks for their rich buddies. I will put the average salaries and retirement plans of the SEIU members up against the backers of the billionaires any day and you tell me who's taking advantage of the system. :o
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Jud_T

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #365 on: November 02, 2010, 01:53:38 PM »
What I don't understand is why there aren't more folks who are very liberal on social issues and very conservative on fiscal issues...Are there really that many knuckleheads on both sides of the isle? It seems like each party needs a lobotomy on opposing lobes... :-\
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 02:03:16 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #366 on: November 02, 2010, 02:00:54 PM »
After the elections are over I encourage everyone to read "A Fasting On Criticalness" by Catherine Marshall.  It's good to set the crap aside for a day.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JMEvensky

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #367 on: November 02, 2010, 02:01:42 PM »

What I don't understand is why there aren't more folks who are very liberal on social issues and very conservative on fiscal issues...


People such as this can't get through a primary--Democrat or Republican.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #368 on: November 02, 2010, 02:21:10 PM »

What I don't understand is why there aren't more folks who are very liberal on social issues and very conservative on fiscal issues...


People such as this can't get through a primary--Democrat or Republican.

Very true.  Take Bill Weld, for example.  He was narrowly defeated by John Kerry in a Senate race (Weld was able to get through the primary in liberal MA) and then he was blackballed by Jesse Helms when Clinton nominated Weld for Ambassador to Mexico because of Weld's libertarian views on drugs and other social issues.   

Phil McDade

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #369 on: November 02, 2010, 03:21:22 PM »
And congressional re-districting has a bit to do with this as well. I'd argue the country -- in the main, if you distance yourself from all the rhetoric -- is divided fairly evenly between the two parties, with independents/moderates/those in the middle swaying to and fro from party and candidate, depending on the year and circumstances. Yet this isn't really reflected in our 435 congressional seats, more and more of which are drawn to the benefit of one party or the other. (In Wisconsin, the Madison-based congressional seat where I live once elected a Republican not that long ago, and re-elected him a few times, because the right kind of GOPer could win here. Now, even in what appears to be an incredibly good year to run as a Republican, the GOP candidate here has no chance against one of the more liberal members of Congress, because the seat now is so skewed toward the Dems).

Overall, it can often balance out in the end -- Congress has gone from Dem control to GOP control back to Dem control and now back to GOP control after tonight, all in the space of two decades (1992-2010). That's not necessarily an inaccurate reflection of the country. But the rigged system of congressional seats leads to candidates who play to their party's extreme tendencies, and thus political rhetoric often gets inflamed -- and (I'd argue) more importantly the willingness of the two sides to work together is often damaged. More and more of these folks just don't seem to like each other, or respect each other's ideas (or seem willing to work with the other side, fearing repercussions back home), and that's not a good thing in the long run, I'd suggest.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 05:10:15 PM by Phil McDade »

Dan King

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #370 on: November 02, 2010, 03:48:01 PM »
Shivas writes:
First of all, the SEIU has more $ to blow that either Meg or Carly by a longshot.

Can you support that claim? 

It's possible you are right on a technicality. The SEIU might have more money, but I'm willing to bet Meg and Carly spent more on their campaigns in 2010 than the SEIU spent nationwide.

The SEIU spent about 85 million in the 2008 campaign (a presidential election) and Meg has spent more than 100 million of her own money in this campaign. Add in Carly's and it easily surpasses the SEIU contribution in 2008 and my guess would be also surpasses this year but I have no data to back it up.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
I believe that imagination is stronger than knowledge - myth is more potent than history - dreams are more powerful than facts - hope always triumphs over experience - laughter is the cure for grief - love is stronger than death.
 --Robert Fulghum

Craig Sweet

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No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

David_Tepper

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #372 on: November 02, 2010, 11:00:27 PM »
The biggest middle-class tax cut in history (and not one Republican voted for it!):

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_02/016863.php

archie_struthers

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #373 on: November 03, 2010, 10:26:27 AM »
 8) ;) 8)

I'll preface this with a short story , two of my friends recently put decks on their shore homes here in NJ ..in both cases the permit fees , surveys , plans etc etc cost more than the materials and labor ...neither deck was more than 300  square feet


Just to keep it on the micro level , many of you who own your own business know the fear involved when  

the fire inspector comes

the health inspector comes

the tax assessor comes

you need a permit to fix your broken steps

your parking lot becomes too small for your business and you wan to enlarge it

you don't contribute to the "right  or "left" party

you are stuck watching Rachel Maddow attack Chris Matthews   (LOL)

we better vote them all out soon and make them live in our world





nuff said  back to GCA



« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 11:31:54 AM by archie_struthers »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #374 on: November 03, 2010, 10:51:18 AM »
The biggest middle-class tax cut in history (and not one Republican voted for it!):

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_02/016863.php

Dave, as you'll recall, much of that wasn't "tax breaks" at all because people who don't even pay taxes were getting checks from the government.  so this wasn't a tax break by any uncontorted, unbiased definition.  It was one-off welfare, and no principled conservative, no matter how charitable, could possible ever vote for an outright lie like that.  Now, if it had been labeled for the charity that it was, that would have been a different story, but heaven forbid Washington ever call something what it is...and what this was was naked wealth redistribution wrapped as a tax-cut and sold as a lie:  taking tax money from the rich and handing it out to the poor...whether or not the poor pay taxes at all was completely immaterial.

How quickly people forget how criminal Robin Hood really was.

Actually borrowed money so not taken from current taxpayers.

Analyze our current budget and there are only a couple of ways to get the deficit under control:

Find and eradicate wasteful and fraudulent spending in all programs, and

Grow out with enhanced tax revenues from a growing economy.

Too much of the budget is off the table to cut enough spending other than fraud and waste.

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