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Bill_McBride

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #150 on: October 27, 2010, 11:16:38 AM »
Bill,

I thought about adding those to the list, but they are not strictly architectural, and they are already happening for other reasons, such as environmental awareness.  I believe chemical reduction has been more or less silently going on for at least a decade. I recall a report from gcsaa to that effect, anyway.

Agreed, although the firmness of a course certainly affects the architecture.  If S&S (soft and slow) is replaced by F&F (fast and firm/fun), won't the architecture have been sent off in a new direction?

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #151 on: October 27, 2010, 11:20:01 AM »
Some of the clubs that are in trouble should look at conservation easements as a way out of their dilemma. If they meet certain criteria the tax benefits can be substantial, like the easement granted to Kiva dunes in Alabama that was worth 28+million dollars.

Clubs can continue to use their property in the same manner as before, as a golf course.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 11:22:09 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

archie_struthers

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #152 on: October 27, 2010, 12:30:38 PM »
 ;D :D :( 8) ???

Running the gamut of emotions reading all the replies to the posts . I might suggest the sampling is of higher educated and affluent people than the norm in America , as most surveys show serious golfers are.  This thoughtful, highly educated group still gets caught up in the dems vs republicans argument.

What is scary to me is that almost no one looks at their local government as a microcosm of the big one, and it is being increasingly controlled by the bureaucrats and their minions.  If more of you had to pull permits to build a house , get a sewer connection , or heaven forbid build a golf course the experience might leave you amazed and scared , yes scared!

Their is no limit to what most municipalities , states and federal government will go to to deny the basic rights of anyone who doesn't play ball with them, whether thru payoffs , excess permitting fees or pay to play ( ie campaign contributions)  It matters not democrat or Republican they are all in the game together .  The very arguments pro dem or republican promulagated here is the lifeblood of their agenda, and fuels their ability to grab more and more control of who builds x and gets the public funding on y .  They play us one against the other with consummate skill , with decades of practice at pulling people apart by pointing out the differences between them. This can be skin color , education , wealth etc etc.


The costs of gvoernment have risen so dramatically because capitalism is not what we proctice anymore ,the best connected , not the best company or individual gets the job almost all the time .  It is not a few jobs for friends , it now is a few ( very few) jobs for all the rest.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 08:30:31 PM by archie_struthers »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #153 on: October 27, 2010, 12:32:42 PM »
Jim,

LuLu in the Philly 'burbs received 2M$ for an "open space" easement. It was used to pay off some debt but operating losses have forced the club to consider selling to another non equity club owned by a golf company.

Pat,

Tax reasons have nothing to with the possible demise of Woodcrest CC in Cherry Hill, HJ:


http://www.philly.com/inquirer/business/20101027_PhillyDeals__Loan_fight_threatens_Woodcrest_Country_Club.html

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

David_Tepper

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #154 on: October 27, 2010, 12:44:58 PM »
Archie -

I sympathize with the gauntlet you had to run to get your course built. I am New Jersey born and raised and I had a favorite uncle who was active in political circles there many years ago. Regrettably, the political culture in New Jersey, at almost all levels, is notorious and among the very worst in the country. 

I would like to think (and hope) that conditions are not quite as bad every where else around this country of ours.

DT

Tim Leahy

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #155 on: October 27, 2010, 12:55:36 PM »
"Gee, think those guys might be just a little bit biased?"

George -

I think EVERYONE is biased!

DT



 :) Hence my original quip to Paul...

Tim Leahy, such thinking is why envy is one of the 7 deadly sins.

So is greed!
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

RJ_Daley

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #156 on: October 27, 2010, 12:58:57 PM »
Archie, I think your comments are very well stated.  The sort of government bureaucrat system of permits that are used as the means to perpetuate this sort of influence peddling form of government is probably much worse in your part of the world than some of our more rural and less complex precincts of the governed regions.  Yet, I"d ask what ongoing evolved circumstance and tradition of doing things created this mess of influence peddlers.  Was it not the case that those that were well heeled and in strata of advantage used their greater wealth resources to buy their government representatives and call their tune?  Then, when the wealthy power establishment got their representatives in positions of regulation and permitting, didn't they more or less allow these bureacratic tin pot politicians to create barriers to new entre into the area that the old established powerstructure already had locked up? 

In my mind, the anger at the system of red tape and extreme regulation is designed in most places to keep the old guard comfortable and not burdened with new entre entreprenuers, by tying their hands or extracting more $$$ influence.  It is a self perpetuating system of influence and it stinks.   But, it is a long evolved system and has Dem anbd Rep roots and machines to keep it going; not a recent phenomenon, and at the root of it is the protection of old $$$ and power, not the entre of new investment and jobs and commerce. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

George Pazin

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #157 on: October 27, 2010, 01:05:53 PM »
"Gee, think those guys might be just a little bit biased?"

George -

I think EVERYONE is biased!

DT



 :) Hence my original quip to Paul...

Tim Leahy, such thinking is why envy is one of the 7 deadly sins.

So is greed!

Yep, they're right there next to each other.

I sure wouldn't call what you denigrate greed, but maybe that's just me...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

David_Tepper

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #158 on: October 27, 2010, 01:07:50 PM »
Very good article (fair & balanced, even ;)) about possible changes to the tax code, most of which make sense to me:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Byebye-tax-breaks-1-cnnm-3195718100.html?x=0

Jud_T

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #159 on: October 27, 2010, 01:51:47 PM »
gee-if we just raised everyone's taxes to 100%, particularly anyone who actually works hard AND makes money, and took away all the writeoffs, again only for those awful "rich" folks who caused all the problems when we were asleep at the wheel, the deficit would disappear immediately and we could keep pissing away money on more and more bureaucracy and hand-outs! I did the numbers, see?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 10:55:21 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

David_Tepper

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #160 on: October 27, 2010, 02:03:45 PM »
"gee-if we just raised everone's taxes to 100%, particularly anyone who actually works hard AND makes money, and took away all the writeoffs, again only for those awful "rich" folks who caused all the problems when we were asleep at the wheel, the deficit would disapear immediately and we could keep pissing away money on more and more bureaucracy and hand-outs! I did the numbers, see?"

Jud -

Sorry, but comments like that are utter nonsense. What purpose do they serve? Despite all the wailing and moaning about the "re-distribution of wealth" in America, it is simply not happening. The facts are that the gaps in both income and wealth in America have widened appreciably over the past 30-40 years.

As Warren Buffet has said, "there may or may not be class warfare in America, but there is little doubt who is winning."

DT   

Jud_T

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #161 on: October 27, 2010, 02:23:08 PM »
David,

President Robin Hood will be glad he still has your vote.  Looks like he's going to need it....Warren Buffett is the same fine upstanding citizen who was whining the most when they were threatening to make him actually post initial margin on his massive derivative positions just like the little people do and not grandfather them all in....It's easy to be a bleeding-heart when you're at the top or the bottom of the food chain.  It's those of us in-between who'll decide if free-market capitalism succeeds or if we continue to turn back into Europe (How're they doin' by the way?).  Gee, what if we actually incenitivized people to work and invest?  What if we actually cut spending like most of us have to? Wouldn't those be novel ideas?...In honor of Ran's request, I will refrain from posting further on this thread...I'm having an election night party, swing by if you've got the stones.... ;)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 02:33:43 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

George Pazin

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #162 on: October 27, 2010, 03:43:23 PM »
Despite all the wailing and moaning about the "re-distribution of wealth" in America, it is simply not happening. The facts are that the gaps in both income and wealth in America have widened appreciably over the past 30-40 years.

Perhaps this should tell you something.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Peter Pallotta

Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #163 on: October 27, 2010, 03:54:36 PM »
Mostly this thread demonstrates only the high regard in which Pat Mucci is held around here, and the affection and respect the site has for him.  

Nothing else explains why this is going on to its 5th page.

Peter

Bill_McBride

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #164 on: October 27, 2010, 04:27:06 PM »
David,

President Robin Hood will be glad he still has your vote.  Looks like he's going to need it....Warren Buffett is the same fine upstanding citizen who was whining the most when they were threatening to make him actually post initial margin on his massive derivative positions just like the little people do and not grandfather them all in....It's easy to be a bleeding-heart when you're at the top or the bottom of the food chain.  It's those of us in-between who'll decide if free-market capitalism succeeds or if we continue to turn back into Europe (How're they doin' by the way?).  Gee, what if we actually incenitivized people to work and invest?  What if we actually cut spending like most of us have to? Wouldn't those be novel ideas?...In honor of Ran's request, I will refrain from posting further on this thread...I'm having an election night party, swing by if you've got the stones.... ;)

First snarky post I've seen from you.  Mr. Tepper definitely has "the stones".......We ought to avoid politics on this site!

Mike Hendren

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #165 on: October 27, 2010, 04:27:11 PM »
Take as many photos as you can of the great courses, I doubt many will be around in 10 years

My initial reaction to this lamentation was why on earth would one of the brightest minds on GCA make one of the dumbest comments of all time.  Like the proverbial fish about to jump in the boat, however, I quickly reversed course before Pat could set the hook.

Patrick mentioned homeownership, happiness and the "American Dream."  However, as the nation's 11.2 million mortgagees under water can attest (not to mention the 2.3 million additional mortgagees who'd be underwater after paying a sales commission) happiiness , home ownership and the "American Dream" ain't the same thing.  

What a great time for us extreme centrists.  If we can survive Bush, we'll somehow survive Obama as well.  As for the Tea Party - I'm not so sure.

Bogey

« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 04:36:54 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Keenan

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #166 on: October 27, 2010, 04:46:28 PM »
Bogey

Sign me up  extreme centrists  a great definition.

John
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #167 on: October 27, 2010, 05:02:29 PM »
Yeah right Pat, pretty soon we'll have no golf, no recreation and we'll all be growing sprouts at some communal garden.

Maybe, just maybe a few clubs might have to cut back, but I've yet to see one that couldn't trim something. Hell, it might even work out better for the courses as there will be less cash for all the other CC crap, and less money for all the restoration "experts" to work their magic.
Reality is the smart rich folk will just find another loophole to funnel cash to where it needs to go. Always been that way, always will, and I have no problem as those same folks employ me ;D

Shivas…LMAO…

Ted Kramer

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #168 on: October 27, 2010, 05:03:44 PM »
Once again, I find an excellent opportunity to ask any and all of you to read Atlas Shrugged if you haven't already . . .

Bill_McBride

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #169 on: October 27, 2010, 05:10:15 PM »
Shivas…LMAO…


Me too, ROTFLMAO!   ;D ;D  "F*** you all, I’m getting drunk." - Notre Dame fan.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 05:23:23 PM by Bill_McBride »

PThomas

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #170 on: October 27, 2010, 05:18:01 PM »
This sounds like the rants of a notre dame fan who is grasping for other reason to commit suicide by  doing a header off the cart shed

Not quite, JB.  This was pulled from an ND football fan board after the Navy debacle (swearing redacted), word for word...I haven't laughed this hard since finding hockeyfights.com...    ;D ;D ;D

___________________________________

I hate you, Brian Kelly. I hate your f***ing lesbian golfer visor. I hate your f***ing offense that looks like Oregon’s offense on quaaludes and holds the ball for 2.5 minutes a game. I hate your f***ing Dance of the Backup Quarterbacks playcalling system. I hate your f***ing Baaaaaahston accent as you blame the players and get high on the smell of your own f***ing farts.

I hate you, Notre Dame football players. You’re made of glass, you’re f***ing idiots, and you look like flabby turnstiles in those absurd shrink-wrap jerseys. You sit on the bench and cry because your opponents are actually, you know, hitting and trying to win a football game. You fold at the first sign of adversity, you drop balls a third grader would catch, and you spend most of the game chugging gatorade and feeling sorry for yourselves. I’m sure that, somehow, you’ll muster up enough strength to go out and drink 19 Keystone Lights in South Bend tonight, because you f***ing deserve it. You’re all f***ing losers. Put your f***ing helmets back on and at least look like you want to be playing football.

I hate you, Notre Dame fans. You people f***ing suck. I hate your pink jerseys, your 2.5 children named Hunter and Dakota and Mackenzie. I hate your f***ing Bluetooths and your Blackberries that you play around with instead of, you know, paying attention to the f***ing football game. You want your hot chocolate hot, your seat cushion squishy, and your football stadium absolutely silent so the noise doesn’t hurt little Aiden’s ears. You’re the lamest f***ing fanbase in the country, and I’m ashamed to be one of you.

I hate you, Notre Dame football. You’re f***ed beyond repair, and the next time you do something impressive will be the first in my lifetime. You’re a bloated, creaking, corpse of a football program that slowly lurches along year after year, taking one step forward and two steps back. F*** your classiness and your tradition and your “Welcome to Notre Dame Stadium!” and your violent yellow flowers and your assbag announcers who can’t identify the players or pronounce their names and your commercial breaks that last a galactic year and your retarded f***ing schedules. All you do is provide schadenfreude for our enemies, and it f***ing blows.

F*** you all, I’m getting drunk.


that is beautiful! ;D
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Kenny Baer

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #171 on: October 27, 2010, 06:15:22 PM »
Tiger, Shivas, and Paul

If you guys are college football fans and at least a little bit familar with the message boards (ie..Dawgvent, Volquest, GatorBait..etc...) then you are in for a treat, if you haven't already discovered this for yourself.

An Alabama fan grabs comments every week from the message boards of the teams that had a substantial loss the week before; some of the lines are true classics.

The language is as vulgar as they get but every week it is good for a laugh, prepare to waste 30 minutes of your life.



http://www.rollbamaroll.com/2010/10/26/1770312/its-meltdown-time  
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 06:35:44 PM by Kenny Baer »

Dan Herrmann

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #172 on: October 27, 2010, 06:16:54 PM »
I had the privilege of attending the Changing of Command ceremony for a long time friend yesterday.  I had the opportunity to speak with a large number of our men and women in uniform, and I was extremely impressed by their professionalism, their friendliness, and their intelligence.

One guy was getting ready to retire after 20+ years service (many thanks to him).  He was worried about life outside the gates - health care costs, terrorism, jobs, etc...   We got to talking about how today's troubles compare to those in our past.  One mention of Gettysburg brought us both back to reality.

If our great nation can survive a horrible Civil War, I think we'll be OK.  We've survived a lot worse than this.

We'll be OK.

Jeff Goldman

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #173 on: October 27, 2010, 07:06:56 PM »
Two questions:

Looking at David Elvins table on page 1 of this thread (which I have seen elsewhere), when the debt/gdp ratio has ballooned twice.  Anybody notice any similarities in the two episodes?

What were the most prosperous decades in terms of income growth, etc. (and growth in middle-class prosperity), and what were income tax rates in those periods?

Bonus:  What cured the Depression, and what happened to the debt/gdp ratio during the cure, and then after?
That was one hellacious beaver.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #174 on: October 27, 2010, 07:50:30 PM »
Jeff,
What cured the depression?  WWII?