[Kris Shreiner]

Mark,

Your points are spot on and the Brits certainly have not being traditional caddie takers in the main. There has been a gradual shift in this attitude however, as they've been taking caddies to a greater degree when playing the top tier Scottish courses. In fact, there has been a youth movement driving that change, the younger professional types that enjoy the experience have no problem paying for it...they see the value.

The "Colt," if it continues to evolve as planned, looks to have the quality to be a significant draw, or game changer for the region. As you state, it is only a couple hours from East Lothian. With some solid marketing and positive reviews, a niche opportunity could be developed. Make no mistake, most foreigners coming to the U.K. are looking for links golf, as I'm sure you are well aware. But great golf is great golf; the forms vary, but a private/international/limited outside play model certainly has possibilities. If the quality is there throughout the experience on property, it has potential to lift the region's other better golf offerings. I admire the owner's pluck in these economic conditions, to forge ahead, and would give it a go, if possible, when my wife and I are over in Scotland next to see her family.

Thanks all for yor insights/visuals of the "Colt." 

[Adam Lawrence]

Kris - got to say I entirely disagree. Caddie culture in this country is essentially dead, and isn't coming back. The only places that have any real regular caddie use are those on the international circuit, St Andrews et al. And they are catering to visitors, primarily from overseas. You can get caddies at places like Sunningdale or Walton Heath, but you have to book in advance to ensure someone is available. There is no large-scale residient caddie corps at any club in England that I am aware of. Maybe Queenwood, which is a new-money course in Surrey.

John Glendinning, the general manager, told me what Close House intends to charge for membership of the Colt course, but the exact figure has slipped my mind. However, as a comparison, Tyneside, which is the course across the river from Close House, and a nice Harry Colt track, is about £620 a year. Close House will be more expensive, but even so, guys who pay that kind of money for their golf are not going to lay down the kind of cash that taking a caddie requires. Golf, even high end golf, is very different over here as against the US.

[Mark Pearce]

Kris,

I essentially agree with Adam.  I haven't seen any evidence of a move towards a caddie culture amongst UK golfers, even amongst young professional types. 

I also think being only two hours from East Lothian may be a disadvantage when compared to, say, Renaissance or Archerfield.  The best course in Northumberland is Goswick, just under an hour from North Berwick.  It is as good as any course on the East Lothian coast other than Muirfield, North Berwick and RC.  I'd be surprised if it gets 100 overseas visitors in a year.

I know that Close House membership is likely to be at a premium to other local clubs (FWIW Adam has given the annual sub at Tyneside, Northumberland is about £900 pa and Goswick about £330, I think) but I'll be surprised if they try to get ultra premium rates, I just can't see the appetite for that here.

[Adrian_Stiff]

They did not take Lou's advice and the caddies have been replaced by Golf Carts. :O(

I also agree with Adam and Mark, no real market for caddies here, but I think you could run a 30 fleet of buggies, which could nett £500 a day...... So its got that going for it...... which is nice.

[Kris Shreiner]

Gents,

How could you see evidence of it, NO ONE has attempted it either! The vast majority of the golf industry, worldwide, has little interest in promoting it...they mistakenly feel they can't profit from it directly...hence they have no interest in supporting it. I'm not looking to defend caddie golf, though anyone that knows me understands I feel strongly about it. See the cart revenue plug for a reason why.

There is far more caddie culture, worldwide, than most realize. Many nations, notably Argentina, India and Asia have plenty of caddie courses. There is tremendous opportunity worldwide, with proper support, to foster caddie golf in emerging nations. The quality and form vary, but they are there. It's no accident, that some of their best TOUR players, come from...you guessed it ...the caddie ranks!

I'll pose a question. Take away everything ever written about the game, remove every trophy or historical artifact from the R&A, USGA, or any other worldwide golf organization/historical venue and close every course... that had a caddie connection to its past or present and what would golf look like? Pretty barren space my friends! Where's the re-investment in this richest, single contributor to the game??!!!!

When viable, greed must sometimes be put aside for long-term health of the game. How can numbers of folks, of poor or modest means, find and stay in the game if they have no exposure to it, unless they have access while they earn and learn? Look at these massive junior program iniatives, where are the sustained numbers remaining in the game? Sorry, those that find the game as a caddie  often have a certain passion and devotion to the game that other avenues don't quite match in fervor. History confirms it. Golf will truly descend into the dark ages if GPS- buggy world is seen as the only way forward, and the current state of the game can verify that for any doubters.

It's easy to point just to economic conditions as to why golf is struggling, but it goes much deeper than that. It's a hard game. Many in today's impatient world want instant success and gratification from their endeavors...golf's difficulty prohibits that. You hear the excuse of time being a constant complaint;fishing takes far more time in many instances, yet currently enjoys record participation.
 
Golf has always had a orderly way of filtering it's numbers. The nature of it always will. The idea that the game owes those in the industry a profit and exponential growth is ludicrous. That is the root problem of it all...unsustainable expectations by a vastly bloated industry. Nongolfers take special offense to the arrogance and gross resource consumpation the game has demonstrated frequently.

Caddie golf may never see much time in England again, the game there will be poorer for it, of that you can be sure.

Cheers

[Adrian_Stiff]

Kris - Its just gone now, the golfcarts and GPS have made them redundant. Progress or a backward step? I don't like distance aids but the majority do and if I dont use them I am disadvantaged. Do I enjoy an experience better knowing the distance on a new course? Yes. I dont really want to hit a great 7 iron when it was a 6. A caddie could tell me for £50 or my GPS tells me for free. Even without carts there are electric trolleys, everything has worked against caddies.

[Scott Macpherson]

HI,

Interesting discussion about Caddies Kris, Adrian etc. Maybe it deserves its own thread? Then others who aren't interested in Close House may partake in the conversation.


scott

[Adam Lawrence]

You know, Kris, I am not sure that India and Argentina are great examples. I can't speak to the latter, but I have spent time visiting golf courses in India and you are absolutely right - pretty much everyone there has a caddy.

Why? Because there are millions of people in India who don't have enough money to put a proper roof over their head or to get enough to eat. Yet there is tremendous wealth too, and a lot of it is at play in the country's golf clubs. Of course, in those situations, people will take caddies.

And, for a small number of people, the caddie culture in that country, as it has in others, will be the making of them. Look at SSP Chowrasia, who grew up, dirt poor, caddying at Royal Calcutta, and who now is a successful professional, a winner on the European Tour.

But times change. All the stories you will ever find about British people changing their lives through caddying are in the far distant past. We don't have - have never had - anything like the Evans Scholar programme. Nobody takes caddies here, nobody. In my thirty years of golf, I have had exactly one caddie in this country, and I was on Freeloading Media Scum (TM) rate at Dundonald, the links course associated with Loch Lomond GC.

What is a fair rate for a caddy's services? The national minimum wage in the UK is £5.93 an hour, so, assuming golf takes four hours, let's say £24. Someone paying a thousand pounds a year for their membership (which is well above average in this country) and playing forty rounds a year is averaging £25 a round. It is inconceivable that people would double their spend on golf just to avoid carrying their bag. A Hill Billy electric golf trolley costs about three hundred quid - that's how people get out of carrying if they have a bad back.

I'm sorry, but the caddy culture is gone, and has been gone for a long, long time. And even if, somehow, it were brought back in a small way, it would just be because lugging a golf bag around a course was a better alternative for someone than either drawing the dole or working in McDonald's.

I agree that golf is under pressure in many countries, although you should take a look at the recent EGU figures that showed the game continuing to grow very well in most of Europe. In some locations, caddying may be an important part of golf's growth strategy. But in the UK? No.

[Kris Shreiner]

I enjoy hearing the apostles of the "caddie golf" is dead mantra. I'm married to a Scot and have spent plenty of time in the U.K. Caddies are well versed in who takes caddies. I've been one. The precentage of caddie golf courses HAS always been small, maybe 5 % tops, since the 1940s . It is smaller now. It always will be small. That doesn't negate the titanic impact caddie golf had, and continues to have, on the game. One can say it's dead all they like. The GAME WILL BE DEAD before the caddie ever leaves golf!

FYI- 2006 U.S. Amateur Champion, Hazeltine - Richie Ramsey- caddie, Royal Aberdeen- won with a Taylor Made putter given to him by one of the American players he had worked for earlier that year.  NOT..... so long ago!

One makes choices. I didn't say the "Colt " should be a caddie course. I DO KNOW many of the truly great courses, worldwide, offer caddie golf.  Many countries, such as England and Australia, Germany etc., have no real caddie culture...and that's fine.

It's obvious many on here never have experienced the benefits and pleasure of having a quality caddie experience. That's a shame.

My late father-in-law, a Scot who played off 4, had a Hill Billy power cart in his later years. He was well -traveled, having been Captain of Royal Dornoch, a member there for 50 years, and a devoted lover of the game. He had never had taken a caddie in his life. I treated him to one when we played at St. Andrews. After the round, in a quiet moment, he thanked me saying," Kris, I had no idea that a caddie could make such a difference in enjoying my round." He was 68, it turned out to be the last year of his life. That Hill Billy sits quietly in the garage at his home, overlooking the third tee at RD. I'm so glad he had that joy of a quality caddie experience at least once.

Despite my very modest means, I will continue to take a caddie whenever offered. It's the least I can do, to pay homage to something that has given my life, and the game, so much.

[Mark Pearce]

Scott,

Is the intention that the course will be fast and firm?  Is there a potential problem with what look like to be some quite severe slopes or have you designed for firm conditions to allow the player to use the contours as an aid?  What was your approach to designing a course on what is such a steep slope? 

Finally, the course is in what would be a great position for a vineyard if it were 400 miles further south.  It hadn't occurred to me before but is there an advantage to building a course on a south facing slope?

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