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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #100 on: October 25, 2010, 06:55:14 AM »
And Arthur Hills did a pretty fine job with renovating the University of Michigan course.

University of Michigan or Michigan State?



I do not care for his work at Michigan State.  I am not familiar with what he has done at the school in Ann Arbir with the JV football team.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #101 on: October 25, 2010, 10:01:49 AM »
I think the biggest problem with coming up with thoughtful criticism of “modern” architecture is that so much of it is regurgitated over and over by many architects to the point where we have all seen it a hundred times before. This goes for the Fazio, Rees, RTJ, Jr., and Hills’ of the world as well as the C&C, Dye, and Doak’s as well. On one hand you can only see so many of the Fazio template holes with “risk-reward” bunkering and user friendly slopes kicking balls back into the fairway with a housing development on one side of the hole before it’s not worth commenting on…it’s been seen before and we all know what it is. On the other hand, you have many of the minimalistic designers who have fallen back on the natural scraggly look with wide fairways, big greens with undulation, all on a pretty site for a golf course….sometimes (not all the time in both cases) there isn’t much worth commenting on.

Unfortunately though, it all boils down for many to group think and what we’ve been conditioned to enjoy in architecture.

Many will write off a Fazio, Jones (either), Hills, etc… course off before even visiting it or if they do they wrote it off as “typical” junk before they pull their clubs out of their trunk. I’ve played some really good Fazio courses, I know of a really solid Rees Jones original design as well as a renovation that I believe he made the course firmly better than it was before…but with narrow minds it’s worthless to bring it up because without playing the course it’s going to be universally panned.

On the other hand the sacred modern designers on here can do no wrong, and every one of their course is “their best and an instantaneous universal top 20 golf course in the United States”…but rarely is that the case. It’s just that when many on here see all the signs of minimalistic design and what’s in vogue many go gaga without actually explaining what makes the hole different than any other of that designers courses and the participants here who don’t actually like it keep their mouth shut because they don’t want to sound like they don’t know what they’re talking about to the others.

I wish more architects, on both sides of the design spectrum, took bigger chances in their designs and that the participants here were more open minded to accept these risks. For as much as Pete Dye got hammered for building “volcano” bunkers in Indiana or Nicklaus got flack for building over the top greens in Michigan…at least they are trying new things and I give them credit for it. For as much attention that Tom Doak gets for building new upscale designs like Rock Creek Cattle and Old Macdonald, what sets him apart in my mind is his ability to build courses like Commonground or his new pitch and putt in Detroit for little $$ that give back to the community, both being “outside-the-box” designs that push boundaries of what a high profile architect will work on.
H.P.S.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #102 on: October 25, 2010, 11:17:37 AM »
"Why is it that we always quote the summer season rates for courses except when we quote the rates for Bandon?  Then, it is often the off-season or the replay rates.  AND, don't forget that those rates are for resort guests, only."

JC Jones -

My post regarding greens fees at notable British courses was in response to JNC Lyon's statement that the Bandon green fee were higher those of comparable British courses. I was simply stating facts that illustrate his comments were mistaken.

Regarding Bandon, its green fees and its relevance as a "public" golf venue, I have offered my thoughts on the thread you started on that topic. I do not believe a specifically cited the green fees at Bandon (either on- or off-season) in any of my comments on your thread.

DT      

David,
 
I meant "we" to indicate a generalization and not "you" to specify, well, you.  Apologies for the confusion.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 11:43:07 AM by JC Jones »
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #103 on: October 25, 2010, 11:23:07 AM »
JC;  Two topics on the front page and on each you attack the fee structure at Bandon.  Is there some unspoken motive at work.  Mike Keiser et al risked his own money, not public land a la Saint Andrews or Dornoch or long ago paid for property like the older privates in England you cited, and bought acreage far off the beaten path because he wanted to build good golf courses.  He then ignored the current model and hired what were then less commercial architects who would build courses in line with his view of great golf. Now, because his success  has created a demand which allows an opportunity to get a return on his money you seem to resent the fact that he charges a healthy fee but one that is  less than other destination courses such as Pebble Beach.  Seems to me that as long as the capitalist system is at work, we should be happy that a project like this can make money; it might encourage others to build more like it.  I am assuming they are doing fine although I haven't seen the books.  But there appears to be some unspoken suggestion that the owner owes the golfing public an opportunity to play at a fee which someone (you?) has decided is reasonable.  Bandon is difficult to get to for most of us.  If the fee gets too high, a lack of rounds will alert the ownership.  There are lots better targets to complain about if we want to look for problems in american golf than the Bandon model

 ::)  When did I "attack" Bandon or it's fee structure?  Would that be in my opening post when I said "I love Bandon Dunes Golf Resort"?

Settle down.  I simply asked a question to figure out whether the difference between public and private was one of semantics or substance and I used (randomly based on someone else's post) the sacred cow as a case study.  Next time, before you fly off the handle, take the advice George Pazin gave you.  (note: advice can be seen in the signature of my posts)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #104 on: October 25, 2010, 11:32:29 AM »
And Arthur Hills did a pretty fine job with renovating the University of Michigan course.

University of Michigan or Michigan State?



I do not care for his work at Michigan State.  I am not familiar with what he has done at the school in Ann Arbir with the JV football team.

Michigan State students play golf?  I thought that was only a pastime of those effete snobs in Ann Arbor.  Not only is A2 a better town and school, but it has the better golf course as well.   ;D As for Hills' work see the attached thread on the Michigan golf course:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34505.0/



Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #105 on: October 25, 2010, 11:39:32 AM »
And Arthur Hills did a pretty fine job with renovating the University of Michigan course.

University of Michigan or Michigan State?



I do not care for his work at Michigan State.  I am not familiar with what he has done at the school in Ann Arbir with the JV football team.

Michigan State students play golf?  I thought that was only a pastime of those effete snobs in Ann Arbor.  Not only is A2 a better town and school, but it has the better golf course as well.   ;D As for Hills' work see the attached thread on the Michigan golf course:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34505.0/





People A2 don't play golf.  They are too busy being hippies fighting against all the injustice in the world as they drive around in BMW X5s. ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #106 on: October 25, 2010, 11:44:49 AM »
And Arthur Hills did a pretty fine job with renovating the University of Michigan course.

University of Michigan or Michigan State?



I do not care for his work at Michigan State.  I am not familiar with what he has done at the school in Ann Arbir with the JV football team.

Michigan State students play golf?  I thought that was only a pastime of those effete snobs in Ann Arbor.  Not only is A2 a better town and school, but it has the better golf course as well.   ;D As for Hills' work see the attached thread on the Michigan golf course:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34505.0/





People A2 don't play golf.  They are too busy being hippies fighting against all the injustice in the world as they drive around in BMW X5s. ;D

You'll be licking your chops when I pull up in my diesel Beemer at the grudge match next summer....All part of my master plan for total mental game domination.... 8)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #107 on: October 25, 2010, 11:48:54 AM »
It's "my mediocre Big Ten football program is better than your medicore Big Ten football program" bickering that makes me root for each's demise. Besides, what's the difference when every Big Ten school gets killed in the BCS bowl games every year when they play a real team for the first time that season? :)



H.P.S.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #108 on: October 25, 2010, 11:51:41 AM »
It's "my mediocre Big Ten football program is better than your medicore Big Ten football program" bickering that makes me root for each's demise. Besides, what's the difference when every Big Ten school gets killed in the BCS bowl games every year when they play a real team for the first time that season? :)





Whatever.  Hockey Fan. :)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #109 on: October 25, 2010, 12:00:43 PM »
JC;  Your response is too cute by about half.  If the only point your making is that an "expensive" public course is inaccessible to a portion of the public and therefore should be placed in a different category, the argument can be made in a single sentence. (I think I just did)  But the repeated use of Bandon as an example seems to suggest that there is something more at work.  As for your initial statement that you love Bandon, it appears that you must have read a little Shakespeare at MSU.  Reminds me of the Antony's funeral oration in Julius Caesar in reverse; "you have come to praise Bandon, not to bury it".

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #110 on: October 25, 2010, 01:36:57 PM »
JC;  Your response is too cute by about half.  If the only point your making is that an "expensive" public course is inaccessible to a portion of the public and therefore should be placed in a different category, the argument can be made in a single sentence. (I think I just did)  But the repeated use of Bandon as an example seems to suggest that there is something more at work.  As for your initial statement that you love Bandon, it appears that you must have read a little Shakespeare at MSU.  Reminds me of the Antony's funeral oration in Julius Caesar in reverse; "you have come to praise Bandon, not to bury it".

Response in my thread on Public golf.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #111 on: October 25, 2010, 05:10:03 PM »
It's "my mediocre Big Ten football program is better than your medicore Big Ten football program" bickering that makes me root for each's demise. Besides, what's the difference when every Big Ten school gets killed in the BCS bowl games every year when they play a real team for the first time that season? :)

Big 10 was 2-0 in BCS games last year. 

Chris Shaida

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #112 on: October 25, 2010, 07:13:49 PM »

And it is safe to say that, deserved or not, criticism of Dismal River has not been stifled.  

Since we are in the midst of an overall effort to improve the tone of this DG, it seems appropriate to give a shout-out to the dry wit of Mr Johnston earlier--particularly given that there are many more vibrant or strident things he MIGHT have said...

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #113 on: October 25, 2010, 07:42:32 PM »
"I'd love for Melvyn to be an evangelist for the great game of golf."

Dan Herrmann -

Given his myopic and close-minded views, I am afraid he is much closer to being the Ayatollah/Taliban of golf than he is being an evangelist for it. ;)

DT

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #114 on: October 25, 2010, 09:37:00 PM »

David

Again I have to correct you, please get your facts right, the Taliban of golf insist upon freedom to hit the long ball but seem reluctant to pay for longer courses or their maintenance expecting others to contribute. They also prefer to ride
minimising the pleasure of a game of golf.

As for closed minded views, no I just try to explain to folks who seem unwilling to read the instruction prior to playing the game. It’s only a closed mind that could come up with a No Walking Golf Course.

Melvyn.     



Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #115 on: October 25, 2010, 09:57:07 PM »
Has criticism of modern gca been stifled?

In my personal experience, no, not one bit!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #116 on: October 25, 2010, 11:13:25 PM »
Jeff
Does the ASGCA allow members of the ASGCA to criticize other members of the ASGCA?

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #117 on: October 26, 2010, 08:31:28 AM »

And it is safe to say that, deserved or not, criticism of Dismal River has not been stifled.  

Since we are in the midst of an overall effort to improve the tone of this DG, it seems appropriate to give a shout-out to the dry wit of Mr Johnston earlier--particularly given that there are many more vibrant or strident things he MIGHT have said...

Chris

Thanks for the shout out!  While the criticism has abated a bit, there are few who visit who don't appreciate a truly Dismal experience.  We just added a new 18th green complex and I would share photos if I could figure out how - its now one of the best (visual) finishing holes I have seen.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #118 on: October 26, 2010, 08:44:30 AM »
It's "my mediocre Big Ten football program is better than your medicore Big Ten football program" bickering that makes me root for each's demise. Besides, what's the difference when every Big Ten school gets killed in the BCS bowl games every year when they play a real team for the first time that season? :)

Big 10 was 2-0 in BCS games last year. 

The Big Ten has been represented 21 times in BCS games in the series' history, sporting a fantastic (.476) win percentage. However, the SEC (.737), Pac-10 (.615), Big East (.500), MWC (.667), and WAC (.667) all having better winning percentages.

Michigan is 1-3 in BCS games. Michigan State has never been to one. The Big Ten has only won one (1) BCS national championship.

And pre-BCS technically the Ivy League has won the most football national championships with 69.

Good thing they went 2-0 last year though. :)
H.P.S.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #119 on: October 26, 2010, 03:05:16 PM »
It's "my mediocre Big Ten football program is better than your medicore Big Ten football program" bickering that makes me root for each's demise. Besides, what's the difference when every Big Ten school gets killed in the BCS bowl games every year when they play a real team for the first time that season? :)

Big 10 was 2-0 in BCS games last year. 

The Big Ten has been represented 21 times in BCS games in the series' history, sporting a fantastic (.476) win percentage. However, the SEC (.737), Pac-10 (.615), Big East (.500), MWC (.667), and WAC (.667) all having better winning percentages.

Michigan is 1-3 in BCS games. Michigan State has never been to one. The Big Ten has only won one (1) BCS national championship.

And pre-BCS technically the Ivy League has won the most football national championships with 69.

Good thing they went 2-0 last year though. :)

Pat

Last I looked, Ohio State has both played in, and won, more BCS games than any other school. Ohio State also has a winning record in BCS games in total, despite the debacle against Florida.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled? New
« Reply #120 on: October 26, 2010, 03:22:50 PM »
It's "my mediocre Big Ten football program is better than your medicore Big Ten football program" bickering that makes me root for each's demise. Besides, what's the difference when every Big Ten school gets killed in the BCS bowl games every year when they play a real team for the first time that season? :)

Big 10 was 2-0 in BCS games last year.  

The Big Ten has been represented 21 times in BCS games in the series' history, sporting a fantastic (.476) win percentage. However, the SEC (.737), Pac-10 (.615), Big East (.500), MWC (.667), and WAC (.667) all having better winning percentages.

Michigan is 1-3 in BCS games. Michigan State has never been to one. The Big Ten has only won one (1) BCS national championship.


Pat,

How many games have featured MWC and WAC teams?  3, each?  Not much of a sample size.  Unlike most conferences, the Big 10 sends two teams a year to the BCS.  Why?--because it's a football conference and their fans will show up.  That leads to more games and more opportunities to be beaten especially if the Big 10's #1 is in the BCS title game and their #2 is in the Rose Bowl playing Pac 10's #1 (USC in the Carroll era used to be a very tough out).  

There is some ebb and flow, but I'll grant that the SEC is usually the #1 conference.  I think it's hard to say that, from top to bottom, the Big 10 is not usually at least in the top 3 among conferences (Big 12 and Pac 10 would be the other contenders, but the Big 12 is down and Nebraska's defection hurts it further).  Moreover, the Big 10 fares pretty well against the SEC in the lesser New Year's Day bowls like the Capital One and Outback.  
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 05:15:51 PM by Tim Pitner »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Criticism of Modern Architecture Been Stifled?
« Reply #121 on: October 26, 2010, 04:33:47 PM »
Jeff
Does the ASGCA allow members of the ASGCA to criticize other members of the ASGCA?

Tmac,

Here is the applicable clause in our code of ethics:

VIII.Members shall recognize and respect the work of other golf course architects and shall not knowingly make statements or offer opinions and comments that are false or attempt to injure or disparage their practice, projects or any of their work.

So generally yes, ASGCA members gca's don't critique others.  My read on that statement, and knowing the intent, is that there would be nothing wrong with a true intellectual discussion on different styles of gca.  Trashing another gca outright, here, in an interview, or in public would be discouraged.

The real question is whether or not this is any great loss?  I am not sure practitioners are the best critics anyway.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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