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David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2010, 10:35:22 AM »
Alister -

Kyle Henderson did a nice pictorial covering most of the holes (all of the par-3's) at Golspie last year. There is a nice shot of #16, a great hole.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40126.0/

If/when I ever get organized, I will do a "My Home Course" post on Golspie. Don't hold your breath!

DT 

Brian_Ewen

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Re: James Braid
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2010, 10:38:08 AM »
I've got a copy of the original 9 hole Brora routing by Sutherland and it bears no resemblance to what is there today.

Niall
I started a thread a few years back after finding this postcard, but of course trying to find the original thread is nigh impossible (to me !).

Does this match with what you have ?

« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 10:42:13 AM by Brian_Ewen »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: James Braid
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2010, 10:39:45 AM »
Ally

I agree with Niall re the initial 9 holes routing but the 1906 extension to 18 holes talked about 13/14 new Greens which is the routing I believe may be that Braid followed - but as no map of the 1906 can't give you a firm yes only hearsay.

Melvyn

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2010, 10:52:14 AM »
Brian

All I've got is newspaper cutting with a routing of the course. Give me a couple of days to dig it out and I'll email it to you. Rich G had a look at it previously and was able to make some sense of it but I don't know the course well enough.

BTW, fantastic photo.

Niall

Scott Warren

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Re: James Braid
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2010, 11:03:55 AM »
The 6th at Golspie:


The 16th at Golspie:


The 7th at Hankley (what the image doesn't show is that the green has 4 levels, starting front right and getting gradually higher as it moves clockwise, the highest tier at the back right):



Jim Eder

Re: James Braid
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2010, 05:53:14 PM »
Terrific thread.  Thanks for all the info and pics.  I really enjoy Braid courses, just brilliant. Thanks

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2010, 06:51:05 AM »
The Witches' Bowster







« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 07:04:40 AM by Brian_Ewen »

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2010, 08:40:57 AM »
As Brora has always been a favourite, the idea that Braid always had his par 3s going towards each point of the compass has always been the one criteria of Braid's that I am aware of. Though thinking about it, I'm not sure it was something that stands out at other courses of his I've played? The other is that I always understood him to not spend much time on site, but still manage to make a very detailed set of recommendations?

I've always thought of Colt as being the man who had a reputation for designing a strong set of par 3s, but Braid's are usually pretty good also. I suppose this is complicated by there being several courses where one has set out the layout originally and the other has made alterations?

There is a Braid book about to be released, from the same guys that brought us the couple of Colt books recently:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Braids-Best-Courses-James-Braid/dp/1906850151/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1287923340&sr=8-1
It will be interesting to see if they have managed to dig up some interesting details about Braid?  :-X

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2010, 08:51:48 AM »
The other is that I always understood him to not spend much time on site, but still manage to make a very detailed set of recommendations?

I think its fair to say Mr. Braid didnt get his hands dirty on too many of his designs.

Most of his course listings in the Cornish-Whitten Bible , are listed "with John R Stutt" , with CK Hutchinson" .

Thanks for the heads up on the book .
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 08:58:07 AM by Brian_Ewen »

Alister Matheson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2010, 02:11:43 PM »
I've got a copy of the original 9 hole Brora routing by Sutherland and it bears no resemblance to what is there today.

Niall
I started a thread a few years back after finding this postcard, but of course trying to find the original thread is nigh impossible (to me !).

Does this match with what you have ?


Brian,
  Very interesting picture and it  shows that the earliest layout and as far as im aware the first 18 hole layout pre Braid was Clockwise inland on the way out and seaside coming back. Braids layout is anti clockwise of course.

Scott,
        Great pictures of the 6th Saucer and 16th Cairngorms at Golspie and of course the shoulder rising on the front rhs of the 6th rises up to the plataeu which is the 16th green ! Two sublime par threes pretty close to each other .

Melvyn ,
           Thanks for mailing the articles and first course map i should be able to get a hold of the pre braid 18 hole layout i will fwd it to you if i manage to get a copy of it.

Many Thanks  To Everyone

                           Alister

 
         



 
Cruden Bay Links Maintenance Blog

http://crudenbaylinks.blogspot.com/

Jim Eder

Re: James Braid
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2010, 03:33:31 PM »
Thanks for the heads up on the book. Can't wait to be notified of the release.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2010, 04:04:40 AM »
For Braid fans that might not have been around when this was first posted .

Do a search for "Golf At Gleneagles" by R J Maclennan , which is available to download for free in PDF format , from various sources.

I would have posted a link but I cant remember which one I used now .

Its a lovely illustrated book that was released not long after Gleneagles opened, when the Queens was only a 9 hole Ladies Course.

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2010, 04:38:35 AM »
Brian,

Here is a link to the Gleneagles book...
http://www.archive.org/details/golfatgleneagles00macliala

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Jim Eder

Re: James Braid
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2010, 11:28:32 AM »
Brian and James, thank you for the book info. Just downloaded it and can't wait to read it.  I love Gleneagles and Braid so this is just wonderful.  Thanks!!!

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2010, 02:44:47 PM »
Never very good at remembering course detail on the spot but got thinking about par 3's on Braid courses and thought of East Renfrewshire GC, a very good moorland course just south of Glasgow which has 4 par 3's going 4 different ways.. I'm pretty sure that the course hasn't been buggered about since it was built.

Niall

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2010, 03:01:07 PM »
Niall
Didnt realise East Renfrewshire was a Braid.

Cornish-Whitten doesnt list it either .

http://www.eastrengolfclub.co.uk/glasgow-scotland/east-renfrewshire-golf-course

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2010, 03:10:25 PM »
It would seem Mr. Braid had no qualms about placing putting surfaces so close to trees  ?

« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 03:15:34 PM by Brian_Ewen »

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2010, 03:49:32 PM »
Ah,
but how many GCAers have played the Course where the 18th is very aptly, and somewhat sadly, named: 'Braid's Last'?

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2010, 06:41:12 PM »
 Great thread, I will try and dig out more photos of the courses I've seen.

I think he has always been underappreciated.   He mostly seemed to work as design and build, first with Carters and later with Strutt.  He produced bold work but was happy to go back and revise or to toutch up others work.  A modest man?  


Here's a note I found in the Suttons Seeds archive (They were great rivals with Carters.)

Tuesday 1st  March 1910
 “Mr Brown Senr. Yesterday spent the afternoon walking round the proposed new Caversham Golf Course (Ed now called Reading GC, very close to Suttons HQ. According to website Braid did 12 holes opened  in 1911), which is situated at the back of Mr. Martin’s old house, Kidmore Grange, and circles round the wood known as Cucumber Wood. Braid was down there all day yesterday planning out the course, in pouring rain, and Brown thinks he made a very good job of it indeed. The appears to be no doubt now the Course will come into existence; a large number of people have subscribed towards it, and our action in promising grass seeds at practically cost price is greatly appreciated. Braid’s remarks appear to have been extremely interesting and apparently he knows more about grass and its treatment than might have been supposed. He particularly urged the importance of not re-tufing new Greens except where it was absolutely necessary , as old turf will generally fine down under careful treatment, and there is this advantage leaving it that the grasses which are there are just those grasses which are there are just those grasses which happen to suit the particular soil underneath. He also mentioned to Mr. Brown a motor roller which he thinks is offered by Barford & Perkins and which he understands could be hired at the rate of £8. Per month. Such a roller being very heavy would-be very advantageous for compressing the soil on the fairway of this very light land, and the charge for hire would bring it within the means of any club.  Mr. Brown got into close touch with him, & Braid seemed pleased at the suggestion that he should come down and spend a day here sometime. With regard to a Greenkeeper there, I quite hope Berridge may be the right man, but Braid recommends one or two, amongst his recommendations being S Ashton, who came down to see us some years ago and who has laid out Walton Heath under Carter’s direction. He is now out of work and Braid thinks he would be very suitable.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2010, 08:48:12 AM »
Anyone got a more recent photo of Elies 11th ?



Ken Kearney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2010, 09:25:41 AM »
I had the good fortune to be involved at Grange GC, Dublin for some remodel / restoration work in the past. Braid was involved at the course in 1926, mostly advising on locations of bunkers / golfing strategies. The history is scant but one can see Braid's hand on the course. ... excellent par 3's in alternate direction and interstingly starts with 2 x par 3's.
The course has par 3's at 1, 2, 6, 8, 11 and 15th... all superb... Not many courses today with 6 x par 3 holes... great fun to play...

KK
KK.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2010, 09:27:57 AM »
I have always understood that although born in the village Braid did not design Elie, though a letter with his recommended changes is still displayed in the clubhouse, despite the fact that the club didn't act on any of them!

I don't have pictures but can see a number of significant changes.  The green is now substantially narrower (it's longer than it is wide by some way), probably due to the fact that the 12th tee has been moved.  The medal tee is now behind the 11th tee, so on the left side of the photo and the yellow tee is to the right of the green.  It seems to me that a shelf has been formed to the right of the tee (the foreground of the photo) for that tee.  In fact, the yellow tee may well be on part of the green as illustrated and, I think, the green is now closer to the beach (maybe erosion, maybe it has moved?)
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: James Braid
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2010, 09:39:21 AM »
Mark

I believe that Braid did make some minor changes 1926 & 1948, 1, 2 and 3 holes and the 18th; some other holes may have been lengthened. The new holes of 7.8.9 and 17tha holes are OTM although they too may just be longer than when designed in 1896.

Melvyn

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2010, 09:46:34 AM »
I was actually fishing at Melvyn with the Elie pic.   ;)

I havent got a date for the postcard, but I thought the square-ness of the green kind of pointed to Old Tom ?

Although an awfully lot of people associate Elie with Braid .
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 10:00:11 AM by Brian_Ewen »

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: James Braid
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2010, 09:52:32 AM »
Brian,

Sorry to spoil your fun!

Melvyn,

I'd be surprised if 7 had been lengthened, the tee is currently immediately next to the 6th green and the green sits right next to the 8th tee.  Do you have any details of the 1896 design?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.