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Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« on: October 22, 2010, 02:47:56 PM »
One subject I would like to learn more about and I hope we'll touch on at the symposium next month in Pinehurst is the viability of opening walking only public golf courses in the US.  I'm keen on exploring the business side of this proposition, more so than debating the merits of walking vs riding. I get all of that. Know of anyone who has looked at pursuing such a business model?  If so I'd love to hear more about it.  Why couldn't a smart operation with smart people entrenched in the operation on a daily basis be able to attract and hold market share by providing solid golf with good gca and be walking only? 

Any examples out there besides, obviously, Bandon? Will Cabot be a public golf course?

Where are the walking only publics in America? Please list them here on this thread if you know of some. 

Thanks,

Eric
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Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2010, 02:57:42 PM »
Its the cart path that I wouldn't build - along with the cart barn
there are some owners that wouldn't be in business not for the cart revenue
the paths and carts and cart storage are already paid for

I'd have a few carts and charge a lot for them
I'd get some local kids to caddy
Pull carts for rent
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Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2010, 03:05:13 PM »
I can't think of any. It seems to be hard enough to find a course that allows walking all the time but apparently it's harder to think of one that doesn't even offer carts.

BTW, Cabot won't be in the United States but in Canada, so I don't think they would be an answer to your question.
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H.P.S.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2010, 03:07:26 PM »
Hey Mike.  

I had another paragraph typed out in that op about my dream build spelling out why I would likely not pursue having carts and the reason was 'having to build the cart paths and the cart barn'.  My problem would be the soils here would seem to dictate having to build paths for the carts. But if there was a way around that, then I'd be fine with having some.  Glad to see you post on here. Thanks.
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David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2010, 03:07:39 PM »
Given the success of Bandon, it certainly could work elsewhere. The real question is, what other developer/operator has the guts (and the deep pockets) to try it. 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 03:11:06 PM by David_Tepper »
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Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2010, 03:08:25 PM »
Oh yeah, thanks Pat!
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Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2010, 03:09:30 PM »
Rick Smith designed a walking golf course at Treetops in Northern Michigan (I think it is called the Tradition or something like that).  I believe it is marketed as a walking golf course, although I am not sure if they stop people from taking carts.
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Matt_Ward

Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2010, 03:11:27 PM »
Eric:

The concept if a fine one but when you go beyond the tiny percentage of people who will opt to play walking only -- this site represents a tiny percentage indeed) that the amt of $$ that will be left on the sidelines will prove a tough obstacles to overcome. I like to walk and often do but the golf course owners need a mechanism to bring more bodies to the table then walking only will provide.

The caddie option sounds nice but many places are somewhat remote and plenty of kids today don't fine caddying entertaining or profitable.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2010, 03:12:06 PM »
That course at Treetops was talked about as a walking course, but they never even opened it on that basis.  It didn't help that it wasn't the most walkable bit of property.
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2010, 03:14:20 PM »
Bethpage Black. The only exception is for the handicapped who must use specially designed carts and have written medical permission for its use. It is not uncommon to see the passionate player in the summer with a metal prothesis for a leg (or even two!) WALKING the round. There was even a newspaper account (I can probably get it for you if you'd like) of a foursome that had 5 prosthetic and three real legs!
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Matt_Ward

Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2010, 03:16:23 PM »
Phil:

The Black allows walking only because the other FOUR courses allow for carts. Without the revenue from carts at the other courses the likelihood of the Black being walking only would be remote.

There's also the insurance issue with Round Swamp Rd.
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2010, 03:17:44 PM »
Quote from: Pat_Craig on October 22, 2010, 03:05:13 PM
I can't think of any. It seems to be hard enough to find a course that allows walking all the time but apparently it's harder to think of one that doesn't even offer carts.

BTW, Cabot won't be in the United States but in Canada, so I don't think they would be an answer to your question.

Hello! Chambers Bay!
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matthew Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2010, 03:21:26 PM »
Eric,

I know that Chambers Bay is walking only and I believe Erin Hills is as well.

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Peter Pallotta

Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2010, 03:28:43 PM »
Nothing to add here, but it made me realize again that one of the primary benefits of golf in the golden age -- i.e. the calm and measured exercise it provided, in an outdoor and natural setting -- has gone almost completely by the wayside in the modern era.  A shame -- as a society and in general we never needed it more, and have never gotten it less.  In the value system of modern golf course architecture, it might be a good thing if walkability carried as much weight as playablity, or shot values or strategy.

Peter     
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PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2010, 03:30:14 PM »
Quote from: Matthew Sander on October 22, 2010, 03:21:26 PM
Eric,

I know that Chambers Bay is walking only and I believe Erin Hills is as well.



Good call Matt re: Erin Hills. That's correct as of this year.
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H.P.S.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2010, 03:38:48 PM »
Whistling Straits?

A lot of resorts are being mentioned because they can charge inflated green fees. But, I'm guessing there isn't a course that is a local-only draw that is a public course that is walking only. Americans are too fat and lazy for that. I can't believe how reluctant people are to walk on even easily walkable courses.
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Matthew Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2010, 03:41:50 PM »
Deleted
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 03:43:56 PM by Matthew Sander »
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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2010, 03:55:52 PM »
Quote from: PPallotta on October 22, 2010, 03:28:43 PM
Nothing to add here, but it made me realize again that one of the primary benefits of golf in the golden age -- i.e. the calm and measured exercise it provided, in an outdoor and natural setting -- has gone almost completely by the wayside in the modern era.  A shame -- as a society and in general we never needed it more, and have never gotten it less.  In the value system of modern golf course architecture, it might be a good thing if walkability carried as much weight as playablity, or shot values or strategy.

Peter     

Peter,

I agree with you on the benefits of the calm and measured exercise when walking a golf course. However, I have yet to play Bandon Dunes and have waited far too long to do so. What with some unpleasantness with health issues, I fear that I am going to miss out on the experience. I have started to play again but gingerly, although I  can walk a mile on level ground, I doubt I could walk eighteen holes of golf. I hear that Bandon utterly cryit doon the use of golf carts.

I am surprised that a Public facility such as Bethpage is not forced by its own municipal codes to accommodate handicapped golfers.


Bob
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JMEvensky

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Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2010, 04:11:19 PM »
Bob Huntley,re:Bethpage Black,I believe they do make accommodations for disabled players to have carts.
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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2010, 04:14:14 PM »
Quote from: JMEvensky on October 22, 2010, 04:11:19 PM
Bob Huntley,re:Bethpage Black,I believe they do make accommodations for disabled players to have carts.



JME,

Thank you for letting me know.


Bob
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Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2010, 04:23:50 PM »
Eric - The local par 3 course is walking only.  I have played other par 3 courses and executive courses in a few cities that are the same, though I suspect you are more interested in full length courses here.  Still, the shorter courses shouldn't be entirely dismissed as they are often the vehicle for introducing younger public golfers to the game and they are frequently more affordable than their championship length cousins.

I'm wondering out loud if a public, walking only option could consistently fill a tee sheet here in Nashville. 
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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2010, 04:26:39 PM »
Eric,

Is Bandon really a walking only PUBLIC course?  Query, if the only people who can afford to play there anymore are members of private clubs in other cities then doesn't Bandon just become a 2nd (or 3rd, or 4th) club for them that they visit once every 1, 2 or 3 years?
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2010, 04:28:08 PM »
Quote from: JMEvensky on October 22, 2010, 04:11:19 PM
Bob Huntley,re:Bethpage Black,I believe they do make accommodations for disabled players to have carts.

I remember reading a post by Tom Doak in another thread advising that all courses are required to at least have a few carts available so as to comply with the ADA guidelines.
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Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2010, 04:34:15 PM »
as noted previously by Tom D and others:

I am not US American (Canada is part of America) but I seriously recall there are laws against discriminating against those with disabilities.  I know in Arizona and Florida we were told we had to have golf carts available for persons with disabilities when we were planning courses.

I would go with no cart paths.
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Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Peter Pallotta

Re: Walking only public golf courses in the US?
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2010, 04:36:22 PM »
Bob - thanks for sharing that perspective.  Please understand: my point was not that there should be 'walking only' golf courses. I think that is a misguided attempt to redress (or cover up) a more basic issue/problem and ethos, i.e. the building of golf courses that aren't walkable for almost anyone.

Peter  
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