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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Use of Trees for Strategic Interest
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2010, 06:04:52 PM »
Two examples from the Midwest:

1.  Blackthorn - South Bend, IN - Hole 5 - 440 par 4 with a tree in the middle right of the fairway just past where a good drive might end up.  The green sets up so that the best approach is from the right side, causing the player to try to find a fine line between being blocked by the tree or having an approach over a fronting bunker.

2.  Skokie - Glencoe, IL - Hole 7 - Shortish Par 5 with trees along the right side protecting the ideal landing area.  Too far left and there's no chance to get there in two.  The play these days for those who can seems to be to bomb it over the trees to reach the preferred right side. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Wade Schueneman

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Re: Use of Trees for Strategic Interest
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2010, 09:11:42 PM »
One advantage of a tree as a hazard is its vertical dimension.  Trees more effectively challenge the player to control trajectory and ball flight than bunkers.  When spaced appropriately, they also carry a big advantage over water hazards in that they randomly allow chances for recovery shots.  I think, when used with appropriate moderation, they add greatly to the experience of playing a course.  (Tunnels of tightly spaced trees are not appropriately spaced in my view).


My sentiments exactly.  If the spacing is right, trees can offer all sorts of escapes and options to the creative and skilled shotmaker.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Use of Trees for Strategic Interest
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2010, 09:43:48 PM »
Garland's description of the swing gate strategy is opposite of how interpreted it. (Shocking I know) I played 3 wood off the tee, to keep it under the gate, and then driver to the green. The gate has two trees (I think it was two) whose slight canopy intrudes into the center, creating the need for consideration prior to pulling a club.

Pete Dye uses trees better than just about anybody. He rarely, if ever, would use them in the 'row of soldier' look, this thread is referencing.  
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 11:49:05 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Use of Trees for Strategic Interest
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2010, 09:58:12 AM »
I think jason's example above is a very interesting use of select trees.  that is a tree which is relatively close to the tee which forces a player to shape his tee shot in order to gain the best approach position. 

We have a 285 yard par four (#10) that has a large pine tree about 50 yards in front of the tee. The tree is on a direct line between the tee and the green.  So you must make a choice, play safely with less than a driver to the fairway, on a line which is  left of the tree, or try to hit the perfect fade around the tree and end up on or near the green.  I will try to post a picture if anyone is interested.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Use of Trees for Strategic Interest
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2010, 10:34:36 AM »
Sure D, post the image.

Adam, I think the hole in the original post could use just 2 or 3 trees total to accomplish the same thing. In other words, the fact that there are too many trees planted there does not invalidate the strategy.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Kyle Harris

Re: Use of Trees for Strategic Interest
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2010, 10:50:16 AM »
I think jason's example above is a very interesting use of select trees.  that is a tree which is relatively close to the tee which forces a player to shape his tee shot in order to gain the best approach position. 

We have a 285 yard par four (#10) that has a large pine tree about 50 yards in front of the tee. The tree is on a direct line between the tee and the green.  So you must make a choice, play safely with less than a driver to the fairway, on a line which is  left of the tree, or try to hit the perfect fade around the tree and end up on or near the green.  I will try to post a picture if anyone is interested.

Played this Saturday. Went with the driver, hit it dead straight center into one of the bunkers left.

Great hole.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Use of Trees for Strategic Interest
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2010, 10:59:10 AM »
Trees are a unique hazard. Normally with water or bunkers anyone can try to play closer to them in order to gain a strategic advantage. In fact there is usually an advantage for even a short but accurate player to play toward this type of hazard (a long, accurate player will benefit perhaps even more). Trees are different. If a short but accurate player plays closer to the trees on the hole in the original post, he might be stymied. To take advantage of playing close to the trouble, you also need to be long enough to get past it. This is a common situation with trees. This is their nature, they are an aerial hazard. Unlike bunkers and water they interfere with the flight of the ball as well as the stance and swing.

With how far and (more importantly) how high good players hit the ball these days, trees are one of the few ways to make them have to curve and flight their ball. There just aren't many ground contours severe enough to force players to curve the ball considering how high they hit it.

In that sense, trees are sometimes less a test of strategy and more a test of skill (there are elements of both strategy and skill in any kind of hazard though). However, it is a skill that most feel is important and needs to be preserved and tested.

Trees are certainly over-used, often to the point of removing the intended strategy of the hole. But that doesn't meet they can't be used properly, or that we shouldn't encourage their proper use.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Use of Trees for Strategic Interest
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2010, 11:06:52 AM »
Charlie, I agree the strategy is not altered, but what is, is the open feeling. This openness is an interesting thing. For the better player, openness can be like Kryptonite.

The other aspects of tree lined fairways that no one has mentioned is how much they can save balls from going to nether regions. Keeping them relatively in play, versus where the ball might have gone. Ergo, these rows of soldiers make the game easier. Perhaps that's really why so many people love them.

People who have never given architecture a single thought will act like passionate psychotics if you threaten to cut down their precious water wasters.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Anthony Gray

Re: Use of Trees for Strategic Interest
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2010, 11:40:58 AM »
Kiawah Ocean`s use of two live oaks on the third hole fronting the approach makes for a unique and interesting short 4 par.

  Pete Dye does this very well.I think Harbour Town is a great example.Most of the holes use trees to influence strategy.Sawgrass also.They are even in the middle of sand traps.They add interest to land that is mostly flat.

  Anthony


Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Use of Trees for Strategic Interest
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2010, 11:48:22 AM »
A few years back we played the King's Putter in the Palm Springs area and we played a course called The Plantation.  The course had been a palm tree plantation and only those trees necessary to build the holes were taken down.  Now picture this, the trees were in symmetrical rows - equal distant apart in both directions.  It was absolutely weird hitting a ball out from the trees because you are normally not hitting out to the fairway at a 90 degree angle.

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