Bandon Perspective

[Bill Boonn]

Interesting post on redanman:
http://redanman.blogspot.com/2010/10/bandon-perspective.html

I agree with some of the points, particularly with the issues of travel from the East Coast.  However this raised an eyebrow:

"Scotland has real links golf, not what passes for links golf, but both have gorse."

Is Bandon Links golf or Links-ish?  I would favor the former.

[Tom_Doak]

Well, it was about his 15th point and not his first or second, so I will take it with a grain of salt, but obviously I would not agree.  Bandon is as linksy as the real thing, unless your definition of links golf includes all the simplicities of life and culture in the UK and Ireland.

[Greg Tallman]

Why quibble over whether or not it is linksy?

Should not the course/facility stand on its own based on the excellent product offering regardless whether you call it links, parkland or hacker's delight?

How many liinks courses in the UK are built atop high cliffs versus those at sea level?

[Roger Tufts]

I agree completely with the travel difficulties. I flew out of Syracuse airport, as I am at school near there and I had to go Syr-WashingtonDC-Chicago (stay overnight at a friends)-San Fran-North Bend, and on the way out go North Bend-Portland-Seattle-WashingtonDC-Syracuse. It was a hassle to say the least, and one of my bags didn't make it out there on the way (luckily, it was my suitcase... the sticks made it).

I believe Bandon Golf is links golf. Interestingly, playing and walking around Bandon Dunes, I felt that some of the holes didn't feel completely like links golf (ie 7-10) but overall the experience was that of a links course. There were a few times where I missed the fairway by a long ways and was not met with the penalty that I felt I should have on some of the Irish links I have been fortunate enough to have played. But then again, BD is the most open of the bunch, and while you don't get penalized by long grass on dunes, you do get those funny lies that sit down between tufts(!) of rough that offer similar dangers. That being said, its not supremely important to have every hole play through towering sand dunes and offer extreme penalty to the wayward strike. Old MacDonald, while not playing completely through the dunes (save for #3, #7, and #14 through #16) definitely had the links feel. Pacific Dunes obviously had it, and Bandon Trails played through the Dunes at least for #1, 2, 17, and 18. The resort overall definitely is a links feel. Just getting off the property to play Bandon Crossings makes you feel this way. For instance, I was able to make ballmarks at BC, and had less than 3 at Bandon for all 5 of my rounds there. The firm linksland combined with cool weather, open terrain, and high winds makes this nearly impossible -- all characteristics of a LINKS golf course.

I agree with him somewhat about the surrounds, as the drive from North Bend to Bandon was rather dismal, however as soon as you get to Bandon and furthermore driving through the town, there is plenty to see in terms of scenery and sights.

[Tom_Doak]

Most links courses are not played through big dunes at all.  Places like Montrose and Monifieth barely have a dune ten feet tall anywhere on the course ... And for that matter neither do Carnoustie or St Andrews, but they are all certainly links.  In fact, I think that's the most common error of designers trying to build a faux links, they tend to shape too much, whereas a true links is more about conditions than about topography.

[Tim Pitner]

Nothing particularly insightful there, I don't think.  

A trip to Bandon is not a substitute for a trip to the UK or Ireland.  They offer much different things.  In terms of the golf, though, the turf at Bandon is the equal of any links and you'll not find any resort in Europe (or elsewhere) that offers the variety and quality of courses as at Bandon.  

As far as scenery goes, not every stretch of the Oregon coast is pristine but, as a whole, it ranks very highly with me.  

[Tom Huckaby]

His entire premise changes if he lives on the west coast - all the logistical points anyway. 

The rest seems to me to be rather obvious.  I concur with Tim.

No, Bandon isn't "real" links golf, not like it is in the UK and Ireland.  How could it be?  Simplicities of life and culture are a large part of what makes golf there so wonderful.  And why would one leave things like that out of any comparative equation?

Bandon is what it is:  GREAT golf, perhaps the best in our country in one resort, with the play being generally very much like that found on a true links, all at a steep price, relatively easy to get to from the west coast, not so much from anywhere else.

I can't wait to get there again.  Same goes for the UK of course.  Just this:  I can drive to Bandon.
 

[Roger Tufts]

Tom-

To clarify, I was merely trying to think of where the author was coming from with his original statement. I also agree with you completely, as I experienced at Enniscrone. I feel that, while the dunes are not faux by any means, the architect focuses so hard on routing the holes through the biggest of the dunes that he forgot to think about the design of the holes hole-by-hole. That is to say he developed a more macro approach to the design than a micro one, and the course and experience both suffer in my opinion.

[Richard Choi]

I don't understand how anyone can argue that getting to Bandon is harder than getting to Scotland if you live in US.

Let's take the most favorable condition for Scotland; you live in NY, it is a direct flight of about 8 hours to Heathrow or Glasgow. Add another 2 hours for customs and you are looking at 10 hours from the time you get on the airplane to getting out of the airport.

From NY, take the direct flight to Portland (4 1/2 hours). Get a rental car and drive 4 hours to Bandon. That is about 9 hours total from getting on the airplane to Bandon doorsteps, not just getting out of the airport. I would much prefer breaking up the travel midway than flying straight for 8 hours.

And for everyone outside NY, you are looking at 2 or 3 connecting flight to get to Glasgow when most people are looking at 2 connecting flights to Portland at the most.

I think it is more hassle than anything to take a jumper from Portland to Bandon. It is short enough that I would rather drive, especially with all the beautiful scenery along the way.

[Brent Hutto]

Bad example. New York City gives you direct flights to 'most anywhere in the world, it's just a matter of distance that determines how long it take. Those of us who don't live near New York City but do live in the eastern half of the country are the least favorable case w.r.t. Bandon.

I'd have to drive to Charlotte, NC (not very far for me) then fly to Portland (5-1/2 hours) then as you say drive 4+ hours to get to Bandon. Call it about 11 hours from getting on the plane in Charlotte to pulling into the parking lot at the resort assuming no delays at the airport or during the drive.

I can leave Charlotte, NC and fly directly to Gatwick. Nine hours on the plane then 2 hours on the train and I'm in Deal ready to play at Royal Cinque Ports. Call it 12-1/2 hours including immigration/customs/etc at the London end. Pretty close to being a wash with the Bandon trip.

The difference is being in Bandon vs. going directly to one specific golf course in the UK is not the whole story. I can be at Walton Heath even quicker than Deal. And while I'm there I can be at any number of links or heathland courses within a couple additional hours drive. And a half-day of travel puts practically the whole of England, Wales and Scotland in play. So yes, I could go play several rounds at Bandon for a few dollars less money and a couple hours less travel than playing my choice of links courses in the UK. But it would have to be a lot more attractive tradeoff than that to swing me in Bandon's favor, although I suspect that I will make a single trip there at some point in my life.

But I'll be frank about my own preferences. Aside from golf (which I'll stipulate to be as "linksy" at Bandon as anywhere in the world) if I'm going to spend five or six days on vacation somewhere a small town in England or a village in Scotland beats the hell out of a snooty resort full of cigar aficionados plopped down in the middle Nowheresville, Oregon. Not even close.

[Carl Nichols]

Richard:
You're both overstating the length of the NY-Glascow flight and understating the NY-Portland flight.  Gate-to-gate, the airlines have the NY-Glascow flight at about 7hrs, while it's about 6hrs for NY-Portland.  Plus mapquest has the PDX-Bandon trip at 4:45 minutes.  That's close to 11 hours, not including waiting for bags in Portland.  And while I've not gone through customs in Glasgow, I bet it doesn't average 2 hours.  So while I agree with you that Scotland isn't significantly easier than Bandon, I don't think it's much harder, at least from NY.

If you have to connect to get to either anyway, however,your argument for Bandon gets better, since most people can probably connect to Eugene instead of Portland and save 2 hours of driving.

[Will MacEwen]

I really don't find Bandon to be snooty, but I tend to go in the off season.

I think discussions about Bandon's cost need a bit of an asterisk - I have had several days there in the "winter" months, playing 36 in short sleeves at a deeply discounted rate. 

[Carl Nichols]

Brent:
I bet you can get from Charlotte to North Bend in about 8 1/2 hours, if you fly through SFO.

More important, what's your favorite small town in England to treat as a central location for golf?  

[Brent Hutto]

Deal does it for me, totally.

A long way admittedly from Scotland (or Wales or Ireland for that matter) but super-easy access from Gatwick and it's a perfect sized town for my taste. You can eat at a different decent-or-better restaurant every meal for a week, easily. There's plenty of shops, grocery stores, laundry establishments, etc. that your logistics for a longer stay are well taken care of. It's right on the water but with only a touch of a "beach resort" feel to it. And it's small enough to walk around, although the golf course makes taking a cab tempting.

I could happily play at Royal Cinque Ports every day with side trips to Royal St. George's (as fine as course as I know of anywhere in the world) and Princes, both a 20-minute cab ride away. There's another sporty course in Walmer, the next town over. And there are all sorts of B&B accomodations available. Plus train service right into the heart of town.

If I had the wherewithal to make a UK trip every year, I suspect over the long term I'd probably do the Deal-by-way-of-Gatwick itenerary at least half the time. But that may be my idiosyncratic love for finding a place I like and spending as much time there as possible.

[Steve_Roths]

I love all the bitching.  Stay away from Bandon please!  More room for me. 

[Tom Huckaby]

LOL
Brent nails it re the comparison of Bandon to UK, but Steve nails it in terms of perspective.

The whole comparison remains rather silly to me.  Bandon is Bandon and UK is UK.  Each are damn worth going to for the golfer.

Re Bandon and winter rates, buyer beware.. you could get weather like this poor guy:

[Richard Choi]

You're both overstating the length of the NY-Glascow flight and understating the NY-Portland flight.  Gate-to-gate, the airlines have the NY-Glascow flight at about 7hrs, while it's about 6hrs for NY-Portland.  Plus mapquest has the PDX-Bandon trip at 4:45 minutes.  That's close to 11 hours, not including waiting for bags in Portland.  And while I've not gone through customs in Glasgow, I bet it doesn't average 2 hours.  So while I agree with you that Scotland isn't significantly easier than Bandon, I don't think it's much harder, at least from NY.

Just for the kicks, I looked at the flights on Expedia and it is about 6:45 flying to Scotland and 7:45 coming back. For Portland, it is 6:19 and 4:49. It is bit longer than Newark to Seattle flight that I take all the time, which is surprising (must have something to do with the model of the aircraft).

What was really surprising was that direct flight to Scotland is about 2X to 3X more than flying to Portland. That would pretty much seal the deal for me...

And it does not take 4:45 to get to Bandon from Portland. It is easily doable in about 4.

[Brad Tufts]

I think it all depends on where you are exactly.  For instance, the Dublin and near-to-Shannon links of Ireland are closer time-wise than Bandon when you consider it from Boston where I live.

One cannot fly to Portland direct from Boston, let alone North Bend, so you are looking at a minimum of 9-10 hours all told.  I have been to Bandon once, and it was 2.5 hrs to Chicago, 2.5 hrs. to Portland, and a 4hr+ drive to Bandon.

If I leave Boston on Aer Lingus at 7PM, I can make an 8AM tee time at Portmarnock or Waterville only 7 hours later.

Yes, we are picking nits...but it all depends on how the travel time and the costs work out.  I admit that travelling to Bandon might be $100-$150 cheaper than flying to Ireland if you add airfare (4-500) and gas.

I think that the "UK is closer than Bandon" argument might work for us in the Northeast closer to the UK by plane (and by direct flight), but not for anyone south or west of Newark.

[Bill Brightly]

Bandon is links golf, IMO. It has the wind, water, gorse and most importantly firm fescue turf that makes it true links. No way I include the nightlife as part of my definition of links golf.

Even if Bandon takes an hour or two longer to get to than Scotland, remember that once you are there, it is a 3 minute shuttle ride to all 4 courses, and there is no more windshield time like you will have in Scotland if you move around to play different courses...

[William_G]

I have not traveled to Play Golf in England or Scotland but have traveled to Bandon twice to play and have traveled to London on vacation.  I live in Charleston, WV and unless you are going to Atlanta, Chicago, New York (you get the picture) you have to take multiple flights to get anywhere.  I can get to Portland in two flights or to North Bend or Eugene in three flights.  I have driven from Portland and Eugene and both are not bad drives.  Next summer I am flying into North Bend for the first time and am going:  Charleston-Washington DC-San Francisco-North Bend.

One aspect that no one has mentioned on flying is jet lag.  It is MUCH easier to fly to the west coast and get up early to play golf than to fly to the UK and try to adjust to the time change.  While not easy to get to Bandon, it is really not that much worse than say getting in a car and driving 8 hours to play golf in Myrtle Beach.  In flying to London I also flew through Washington DC but the layover times were much worse so it made for a longer trip.  Also you have to compare the flight times going the same direction, flying back from London took FOVEVER, I think psycologically it is easier for me to endure the longer flight on the way there because of the anticipation of the trip.

I also would ship my bag to either place before the trip and generally only take carry on luggage so losing a bag would be a non-factor.

I find Bandon to be about the most relaxed resort golf I have ever been to and probably one of it's best qualities, besides the wonderful courses.  

Finally, is the wife factor...I can say I am going on a golf trip to the coast of Oregon and get away with it, but no way I could leave the Country without her wanting to tag along (she is a non-golfer and I would be lucky to get more than one round of golf in, two at most).

+1! Well said.

[Jud_T]

Bandon plays as much like a links as anything in the UK even though by a narrow definition it isn't one.  It's pretty clear in my mind.  If I had the time and money I'd do what we used to do, i.e. alternate trips between the US and GB&I.  Now I'll simply go to Bandon.  The golf is better without hiking all over the place or playing some lesser "gems".  The jet lag's better.  The cost is less.  The travel time is less.  And for those who keep talking about the 4 hour drive from Portland, they do have connecting flights guys....

[Rory Connaughton]

Absent the logistical headaches would go to Bandon every year.  Place is intoxicating. I agree that the comparison with the UK and Ireland (I can only claim to have played in the RoI and NI) is not totally fair.  Each is terrific in its own way.  That said, my four day trip to Bandon was more expensive than any Ireland trip which are always of greater duration by at least three days.

Curious to know whether any of you have found that the ball tends to hold the greens at Bandon a hair bit more readily than overseas.

[Scott Weersing]

I agree completely with the travel difficulties. I flew out of Syracuse airport, as I am at school near there and I had to go Syr-WashingtonDC-Chicago (stay overnight at a friends)-San Fran-North Bend, and on the way out go North Bend-Portland-Seattle-WashingtonDC-Syracuse. It was a hassle to say the least, and one of my bags didn't make it out there on the way (luckily, it was my suitcase... the sticks made it).

I believe Bandon Golf is links golf. Interestingly, playing and walking around Bandon Dunes, I felt that some of the holes didn't feel completely like links golf (ie 7-10) but overall the experience was that of a links course. There were a few times where I missed the fairway by a long ways and was not met with the penalty that I felt I should have on some of the Irish links I have been fortunate enough to have played. But then again, BD is the most open of the bunch, and while you don't get penalized by long grass on dunes, you do get those funny lies that sit down between tufts(!) of rough that offer similar dangers. That being said, its not supremely important to have every hole play through towering sand dunes and offer extreme penalty to the wayward strike. Old MacDonald, while not playing completely through the dunes (save for #3, #7, and #14 through #16) definitely had the links feel. Pacific Dunes obviously had it, and Bandon Trails played through the Dunes at least for #1, 2, 17, and 18. The resort overall definitely is a links feel. Just getting off the property to play Bandon Crossings makes you feel this way. For instance, I was able to make ballmarks at BC, and had less than 3 at Bandon for all 5 of my rounds there. The firm linksland combined with cool weather, open terrain, and high winds makes this nearly impossible -- all characteristics of a LINKS golf course.

I agree with him somewhat about the surrounds, as the drive from North Bend to Bandon was rather dismal, however as soon as you get to Bandon and furthermore driving through the town, there is plenty to see in terms of scenery and sights.

So would you ship your clubs out early?

We are flying out through DC to SF to North Bend.

[Bill Boonn]

When I flew from Philly - SF - North Bend last year, they left my clubs (along with several of my buddies clubs) in SFO citing weight issues.  I didn't get my clubs at Bandon until the following day.

So if you want to guarantee that you'll play with your own clubs, I'd ship them.

But FWIW, the demo clubs that the Bandon pro shop had available were fantastic....

[Roger Tufts]

Curious to know whether any of you have found that the ball tends to hold the greens at Bandon a hair bit more readily than overseas.

I found it very difficult to make a ball mark, and the only times I did were during the rainstorm.

I do not feel that the ball tends to hold at Bandon any more than other links overseas courses. In fact I think my ball held more at RCD and Portrush than at any of the bandon courses. Especially at Old Mac, the ball just seems to roll forever. But this could also be a product of my being in Ireland in the Summer and Bandon in October.