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JNC Lyon

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Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« on: September 05, 2010, 12:37:32 PM »
To get pumped up for the 9/27 outing at Mountain Ridge, I decided to make a day trip and play a Ross layout I had yet to see--Thendara Golf Club.  Thendara is about one hour from Utica in the Southwestern portion of the Adirondacks.  It consists of two vastly different nines.  The back nine is a newer layout by Russell Bailey cut through virgin woodlands along the Moose River.  Because of the beautiful forestry and hilly terrain, the back nine presents a lot of interest.  10 and 18 have brilliant raised greensites that can be diabolical if missed in the wrong spot.  The 11th is a beautiful short par four along the Moose River, where player is asked to flirt with the river off the tee on the right to get the best angle into a green snuggled into a wooded hillside.  The 14th and 15th are also highlights, weaving back and forth around hillsides to create illusion and strategy.

While the back nine is interesting enough, it does not have enough variety in the greens to be considered anywhere near great.  It is the Donald Ross-designed front that is the real treat for GCA junkies like ourselves.  The nine holes are routed beautifully in typical Ross fashion, with a tee being no more than fifty yards from the previous green.  The course has some beautiful rippling terrain and some vintage bunkering.  The short par four 3rd hole is best example the good terrain that is used perfectly by Ross.  The player can either lay back to a flat lie off the tee, or he can gamble with the driver with the risking of leaving a downhill lie for the approach.  The rub is that the plateau green is best approach from both a flat lie and the out of bounds-defending left side of the fairway.  However, the 3rd hole not withstanding, the tee to green strategy is by no means the strength of the Ross layout.  The real treat is the collection of Ross greens.  While greens at 4 and 5 appeared to have been altered, the greens at 1, 6, 7, 8, and 9 appear to be original and contain wild interior contours.  

7 and 9 are two greens that are unlike anything I have seen before.  7 is set in a field with the elevation change of a billiard table.  Yet the green contains two giant, manmade mounds within the green.  The two mounds run perpendicular to the line of play.  One mound is 5 yards deep into the green, and the other is 25 yards deep into the green.  These two mounds make the approach into the short par four vexing, and the green as a whole provides a great defense for an otherwise benign par four.  The 9th green, like the seventh, is set in a field and uses wild contouring to spice up benign topography.  Unlike the seventh, the 9th is a long par three, meaning that the wild green turns a tough hole into the most difficult hole on the Ross nine.  The 9th consists of one dominant contour: a giant mound 10 yards wide and 20 yards deep in the middle of the green.  Any shot not hit with accuracy and conviction will be shrugged well away from the usual pin placement atop the mound.  The green is borderline goofy, but it is also tons of fun.  Like many long par threes of the Golden Age, the best miss at the ninth is short and straight to give the best opportunity for a three.  The ninth also remains reasonable because there is plenty of putting surface surrounding the mound.  A shot that rolls off the side of the mound will stay on the green and leave a difficult putt, and it will only be poorly played tee shots that find the greenside bunkers.

While every hole on the Ross nine has some merit, the course is worth seeing for the 3rd, 7th and 9th alone.  Coupled with a different but fun back nine, Thendara presents a great opportunity for a golf excursion into the Adirondacks.  The Ross fanatics will love the front and find enough interest on the back nine to accept the jekyll and hyde feeling.  In other threads, people mentioned that Thendara was a good course, but it was not worth playing over courses in the area like Teugega or Yahnundasis.  Of course, they did not mention that Thendara is public, cheap ($25 twilight), and very laid-back (jeans are a staple).  In short, it is a haven in an era of overpriced and overproduced layouts, classic and modern alike.  Thendara is DEFINITELY worth a play if you are in the area.  ROSS FREAKS UNITE!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 12:44:18 PM by JNC_Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 07:08:40 PM »
John,

Thanks for the overview. Any possible pictures you could post? Sounds like the sort of place that American golf needs more of.  I not a big fan of jeans on the golf course, unless it is a rural, local track such as you describe. No snobbery intended; the cutoffs, horrid gym outfits and bowling shirts just seem to make their frequent appearance where "relaxed" dress codes are allowed in more urban settings. It's been proven that folks often act differently according to how they're dressed, and some effort in this area generally leads to fewer "issues."
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

JNC Lyon

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 07:33:20 PM »
John,

Thanks for the overview. Any possible pictures you could post? Sounds like the sort of place that American golf needs more of.  I not a big fan of jeans on the golf course, unless it is a rural, local track such as you describe. No snobbery intended; the cutoffs, horrid gym outfits and bowling shirts just seem to make their frequent appearance where "relaxed" dress codes are allowed in more urban settings. It's been proven that folks often act differently according to how they're dressed, and some effort in this area generally leads to fewer "issues."

Kris,

I'm not really a picture-taker, never have been, so I didn't take any photos at Thendara.  I sort of wish I had though, especially since I can't find any good ones online.  Check out "Golf Has Never Failed Me" for the the original Ross routing of the front nine, which remains more or less intact today.

I also understand your point about the relaxed dress code.  Regardless of what we might want to believe, it only works well at rural golf courses.  I just thought it added perfectly to the atmosphere at Thendara.  The course and clubhouse had nothing snobbish.  People were there to play golf and enjoy themselves.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 07:39:13 PM »
Disagree...urban municipal courses and suburban municipal courses have no reason to ban jeans.  These are the clubs of many working-class people, the folks who line up to buy the coveted season pass.  Would they work at your local country club?  Sure, but they'd be high-end, $300/pair designer jeans with tears already torn!

It's a coincidence when jeans are on the legs of an ingrate or a buffoon.  To say that jeans don't work on a golf course and bring in an illegitimate clientele is not true.

With that out of the way, thanks to JNC for introducing Thendara today in a thread.  I've heard of it as part of the NY Golf Trail but have never made the trip to see it.  Perhaps I shall in 2011.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2010, 07:45:27 PM »
Disagree...urban municipal courses and suburban municipal courses have no reason to ban jeans.  These are the clubs of many working-class people, the folks who line up to buy the coveted season pass.  Would they work at your local country club?  Sure, but they'd be high-end, $300/pair designer jeans with tears already torn!

It's a coincidence when jeans are on the legs of an ingrate or a buffoon.  To say that jeans don't work on a golf course and bring in an illegitimate clientele is not true.

With that out of the way, thanks to JNC for introducing Thendara today in a thread.  I've heard of it as part of the NY Golf Trail but have never made the trip to see it.  Perhaps I shall in 2011.

Damnit, I see your point on the jeans too.  I guess the jury still out for me, but I'm trying to become more relaxed about what people wear as I move forward.

There's still time to see Thendara in 2010! :)  It's worth the trip (though maybe less so).  If you make up there when I'm still Colgate, let me know and I'll meet you for a game.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2010, 07:58:08 PM »
JNC   -  Let me put it this way.  If I wasn't able to wear jeans as a high schooler/college student, I'd have never started playing.  Nothing to do with respect for the game's history- the decision was due to lack of money.

Back to Thenara - I agree that this is the sort of place we need more of.  Thanks for posting!

Dan Boerger

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 09:03:58 PM »
I played Thendara twice this summer and enjoy playing it every year. Very nice write up and I don't think the Ninth green is borderline goofy ... it's nearly unplayable when the pin is on the top mound! I would also add that 12 is a beautiful 1 shot par three that can be sneaky short with the Moose River so close. Also, while certainly not the most inspiring hole on the course, I really like 13 as a strong par 4.

I have never played a Ross with such tiny bunkers -- so I wonder if this was a design element or just some natural and uncontrolled shrinkage.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 09:56:31 PM »

Blue jeans are no cheaper than an ordinary pair of ...whatever average type pants. Of course, jeans are what many of us wore in our youth or now wear in adult life in casual settings. I merely stated a preference, as my considerable experiences throughout this country and others, in virtually every golf setting one can think of...framed my remarks.  Reality is tough for those that live in the world of PC. I've spent most of my life living ang playing in non-rural golf settings. Few on this site can claim a more solid blue collar upbringing than myself. Why are so many urban school's now adopting "dress codes"? The First Tee and most junior programs I know aren't show up in whatever run. Nice, unshabby jeans would be no problem...try enforcing that! Nuff said.

John, You know why I mentioned it.

Just a thought. As to pictures, I'm not a camera guy either in general. It can be quite disruptive when you are trying to play, and enjoy a course the first time as well. That said, your descriptions are super, but a few pictures that can capture it visually really add to the mix. I've decided to try and take more shots of the GCA in the future. You have added a ton to this site, with your experiences and tireless posts on all you observed and experienced in the U.K. last year. Rock on!
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Bill Hyde

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2010, 11:35:35 AM »
I grew up outside of Syracuse and used to play 36 a day as a kid/young teen. One of the people I often played with was a man named King Sheldon who was in his mid-70s and still a sharp player. He had been a club champ at Onondaga in the middle of the century and somehow he had gotten involved in the construction of the second nine at Thendara. As it turns out, the back nine greens were designed by him. I recall, after playing there in a high school sectional tournament, thinking to myself "man, old King sure came up with some crazy greens!" When I mentioned this to him he chuckled and said that the greens I was referring to were on the front and were the work of Donald Ross. He said they were among the most severe greens he had ever seen. So, if you ever play Thendara, go easy on your assessment of the back nine greens, they were the work of a gentle Xerox salesman who happened to know a little bit about the game!

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2010, 01:25:59 PM »
I played Thendara twice this summer and enjoy playing it every year. Very nice write up and I don't think the Ninth green is borderline goofy ... it's nearly unplayable when the pin is on the top mound! I would also add that 12 is a beautiful 1 shot par three that can be sneaky short with the Moose River so close. Also, while certainly not the most inspiring hole on the course, I really like 13 as a strong par 4.

I have never played a Ross with such tiny bunkers -- so I wonder if this was a design element or just some natural and uncontrolled shrinkage.

12 and 13 were not really inspiring for me, but I do like that over-the-rise tee shot on 13.

I think the tiny bunkers are more prevalent on the back nine (non-Ross).  The front nine still has pretty authentic bunkers in my view (except around the newer 4th green, which I'm convinced was redone by Geoffrey Cornish).  To my mind, those front nine bunkers are very original and normal in size for Ross.

The 9th is obviously very controversial, but it just requires some concentration.  A great shot is rewarded, a good shot leaves a tough two putt, and a bad shot leaves a very difficult up and down.  Is that unfair?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2010, 01:33:28 PM »
I grew up outside of Syracuse and used to play 36 a day as a kid/young teen. One of the people I often played with was a man named King Sheldon who was in his mid-70s and still a sharp player. He had been a club champ at Onondaga in the middle of the century and somehow he had gotten involved in the construction of the second nine at Thendara. As it turns out, the back nine greens were designed by him. I recall, after playing there in a high school sectional tournament, thinking to myself "man, old King sure came up with some crazy greens!" When I mentioned this to him he chuckled and said that the greens I was referring to were on the front and were the work of Donald Ross. He said they were among the most severe greens he had ever seen. So, if you ever play Thendara, go easy on your assessment of the back nine greens, they were the work of a gentle Xerox salesman who happened to know a little bit about the game!

That is a really cool story! Clearly there is more to the story of Thendara's back nine than originally thought.  The greens on the back nine are nothing spectacular, but they are decent enough nonetheless.  The important thing about those greens, and the back nine layout in general, is simplicity.  The architects involved (Bailey, King Sheldon, whomever) did not move a ton of land.  The architecture is minimalist, and it leaves the golfer to marvel at the great landforms along the Moose River.  It doesn't have the charm and interest of the Ross front nine, but it is a decent counterpart, nonetheless.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Dan Boerger

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2010, 08:42:20 AM »
JNC --

I really like 13 for that reason ... the over the rise tee shot and the water hazard on the approach that will get in the mind of many players.

Is the Ninth unfair? I loosely define fairness as rewarding good shots, penalizing poor shots. [Discussing fairness on this site could leads to Merion-esque length threads.] My problem with that green is that the hump is so pronounced and made even more maddening by a mid-to long iron approach [for most golfers]. It's really a hit and hope shot off the tee IMO.

If a hole like that were built today I think we would be far more critical of it. I took some pictures of it and as soon as I figure out how to upload pics I will add them to this thread.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Dan Boerger

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2010, 10:44:19 AM »
Here's a picture of the ninth green ... I wish I took more ... it looks [to me at least] as if the shelf isn't as dominant as it truly is for the player. DSC_0134.JPG
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Dan Boerger

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2010, 11:57:16 AM »
I'll try this again ....  
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 03:08:34 PM by Dan Boerger »
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

JNC Lyon

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2010, 12:26:14 PM »
JNC --

I really like 13 for that reason ... the over the rise tee shot and the water hazard on the approach that will get in the mind of many players.

Is the Ninth unfair? I loosely define fairness as rewarding good shots, penalizing poor shots. [Discussing fairness on this site could leads to Merion-esque length threads.] My problem with that green is that the hump is so pronounced and made even more maddening by a mid-to long iron approach [for most golfers]. It's really a hit and hope shot off the tee IMO.

If a hole like that were built today I think we would be far more critical of it. I took some pictures of it and as soon as I figure out how to upload pics I will add them to this thread.

I'm still not getting the pictures coming up, but I await them with baited breath! :D

I suppose the 9th is a hit and hope shot off the tee if you are trying to hit it close.  Remember, though, there is always the option to leave it short of the green with a four or five iron and pitch up.  The recovery shot from directly in front of the green is not too difficult because it plays up the length of the mound.  Any pitch shot that misses by 5-10 yards isn't very good anyway, is it?

I guess that sort of green would not be built today.  However, I think it works in the minimalist school for this reason: it is very SIMPLE.  It is just one, pushed up mound.  It is not a giant, convoluted green.  There is nothing complex about it, yet it yields endless possibilities recovery shots, and scores.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2010, 06:30:33 PM »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JNC Lyon

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2010, 07:31:12 PM »
More good info Jim.  I thought the story about scouting for land was especially interesting.  The effect of going to play Thendara is very interesting to me...driving up the winding Route 28 through consistently rugged mountain terrain.  All of a sudden you get to the town of Thendara, turn left into the golf course and come upon a flat, gently rolling field where the original Ross nine is located.  It's as if that's the only flat land with 50 miles.  The back nine added later, is much more rugged and indicative of the Adirondacks.  It's very cool stuff.

Is F. J. Byrne the same guy for whom Francis Byrne in New Jersey is named.  That's definitely a familiar name.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2010, 09:00:55 PM »
JNC,
I don't think so. It's Francis A. Byrne in NJ and the Francis J. Byrnes in Pa. was a politician.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dan Boerger

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Re: Thendara Golf Club--Adirondacks, New York
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2010, 08:31:54 AM »
The back Nine at Thendara is so different that it's more like playing two Nine hole courses. And I mean this as a compliment. I've often wondered if the state would even allow further tree removal on the back. I'm generally not opposed to trees as hazard, but I would not mind opening up 14 and 15 a bit.

Inlet's another course I play during the summer while I vacation in Old Forge. The entire course is more like the back at Thendara, but some fun holes and only $25 after 3pm to play as much as you want.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

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