Missing Letters of Merion: Horatio Gates Lloyd and Charles Blair Macdonald

[TEPaul]

"Messers Paul and Moriarity,

Smashing good show of civil discourse, gents!  A shining example of all, as the Marines are wont to say, we can be and a true inspiration to us all! Bravo and Jolly Good to both."




Mr Jeffrey:

Thank you so much for noticing that and mentioning it. It really is a glorious thing, don't you think? I knew we could do it----I knew it, I knew it, I KNEW IT!!  I really did.

Matter of fact, I just had a phone conversation with our leader, Ranulph Morrissett, and he seemed to be so happy over this latest development of civil and courteous discourse I really did think I could hear him flying!

Or maybe he just had his car window rolled down but one can always dream, can't one?

[JESII]

Happy to...but I'm not a shoe guy, I'll probably stay out of that wing...

[Mike Cirba]

Crazy Uncle Tom,

I believe your letter should be more properly addressed to "Father Jeff",  or "Father Jeffrey", if you prefer to be formal.

[Mike Cirba]

And Tom..."Jimbo" is hardly the proper way to address Mr. Sulilvan.

I'm not sure if he's embraced "Doubting Jim" yet, but Jimbo...nfw!

[TEPaul]

Guys, Guys:

Could we please get away from these useless speculations and meanderings and back to the actual subject at hand of this thread-----eg David Moriarty's initial post on this thread he started?

I think I am constrained to begin to deal with his three numbered queries in his initial post----eg (1, 2, and 2).

How do you think I should go about this given what it may mean to a truly significant golf club and golf course and its architectural history? Should I pass all this by them first or should I put my findings on here first before speaking with them about it and how they may want to handle it?

[PCCraig]

Nevermind.

[Jason Elwell]

I haven't been here long, but this is the second most bizarre thing I have seen since joining. Right behind that crazy guy with the dying rabbit at Pebble.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

"How do you think I should go about this given what it may mean to a truly significant golf club and golf course and its architectural history? Should I pass all this by them first or should I put my findings on here first before speaking with them about it and how they may want to handle it?"

Since you asked, I think you should have thought of that first before mentioning the information. Secondly, as it is obviously publicly accessable information, Merion would not have any say in its dissemination just as North Shore had no say in the dissemination of their own board minutes since they were available through a public entity, the New York Historical Society.

[Jeff Taylor]

I 2nd Mr. Young's comment. Who owns the information anyway?

[JESII]

Who owns the information anyway?

Happydale Farms!

[Eric Smith]

Both...you read it correctly and it's a prank...sadly.

This is going to crush David when he learns this.

[JESII]

Both...you read it correctly and it's a prank...sadly.

This is going to crush David when he learns this.

I don't know, do you think he bought it? It would have been the first thing Tom wrote that David believed in years.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The esteemed Mr. Moriarity is no intellectual slouch.  I think he knew immediately, or very soon after, but just wants to believe so badly.  His theory makes some sense, really, but never had the papers to back it up and these would be those.

Intellectually and emotionally speaking, Mr. Thomas E. Paul was kicking poor David in the cajones!  Certainly NOT in line with the new demeanor expected on this site, and certainly an ongoing badge of shame for the esteemed Mr. Paul.

BTW, as I am on lunch, I googled through a few more pages on entries on "Papers of Horatio Gates Lloyd" and found some scattered around, but none at Drexel, at least so far.  Sadly, tis nothing more than a dead end, wild goose chase, silly prank.

TePaul you are a rascal good sir!

[Eric Smith]

We shall see, Jim.  I know I did until you wrote otherwise. Gullible am I.  It is sort of a bummer, though I shouldn't care - but, strangely, I do.

[JESII]

Eric,

You could only have fallen for it by lacking the experiance of reading the vast majority of the Merion threads beginning just prior to David's essay coming out a few years ago. If Tom had anything of this nature he surely wouldn't have revealed its existence this way. He would reveal it, but not this way.

[Eric Smith]

Eric,

You could only have fallen for it by lacking the experiance of reading the vast majority of the Merion threads beginning just prior to David's essay coming out a few years ago. If Tom had anything of this nature he surely wouldn't have revealed its existence this way. He would reveal it, but not this way.

The experience of which you speak...lack it I do. 

[Phil_the_Author]

Jim,

In my OPINION, I believe we have two people here who are playing "blink" with each other.

David refers to posts 508-512 as his source, yet leaves out what Tom P. posted in post 507! He put that one up 5 minutes before your question in post 508. I believe that is the answer as to whether he was serious or not.

Just my opinion...

[TEPaul]

"Since you asked, I think you should have thought of that first before mentioning the information."


Philip:

I think you're right about that. I should have thought about what Merion would think about this before even mentioning anything about it on here just as Steve Shaeffer thought about not mentioning what he found out about North Shore on here before first mentioning it to the club. And I should add that all worked out beautifully in the end.



"Secondly, as it is obviously publicly accessable information, Merion would not have any say in its dissemination just as North Shore had no say in the dissemination of their own board minutes since they were available through a public entity, the New York Historical Society."



That's true. I suppose this of course should be considered publicly accessible information and therefore Merion would not have any say in its dissemination just as North Shore had no say in the dissemination of its old board minutes since they were available through a public entity.

And just as Steve Shaeffer courteously considered what North Shore thought about it I feel I should do the same with Merion even if in the case of North Shore what he found was material from the club itself years ago this is not old material from MCC itself even if it involves someone who was very much part of what was going on with MCC back then.

I think this basically boils down to what anyone who finds revelatory material on the history of a club feels the right thing should be to do with it first.

[DMoriarty]

I don't know, do you think he bought it? It would have been the first thing Tom wrote that David believed in years.

Interesting observation, Jim.  Another way to look at it is that this may be the first thing TomPaul has written in years that many here haven't believed.

As for me, my approach here is the same as it has been the last half-dozen or so times when someone claimed to have found something or figured out something that would answer all questions and settle all disputes.  I couldn't possibly have an opinion because I haven't had a chance to review and consider this new information.

Likewise, there is no need to opine about whether TEPaul is playing above board or whether he is making a mockery of Ran's website and trying to make fools of us all.  We'll find out the truth soon enough. 

[Bradley Anderson]

David,

I actually fell for it. Through out the day I was thinking how admirable it was that Tom Paul was coming forward with new information. So when I found out later that it was all a hoax I was very disappointed in Tom Paul.

Sorry Tom Paul, but I think you owe David an apology.

[TEPaul]

Brad:

I'd be interested in knowing exactly how you found out later this was a hoax (as you said above).

And I would also like to know why you think I owe David Moriarty an apology. For what? On that other thread when I mentioned informaton from Drexel University I was talking to Sullivan, not Moriarty. I don't see that I ever addressed Moriarty on that other thread about this. But he did thank me for mentioning this to Sullivan.

And then he started this thread on information about Lloyd quoting what I said to Sullivan about Lloyd's papers on the other thread. Perhaps David Moriarty should have gotten in touch with me first before he started this thread but he didn't do that any more than he got in touch with Merion or MCC before he published his essay on here.

There is a distinct and consistent pattern by him this way and I think one should begin to consider why that is the case.

However, if for whatever reason I say that I might be coming to consider that some of what he said in his essay might be true about the history of Merion due to some things I discover myself, then is there some reason I should be aware of that I automatically owe it to him to turn over that material to him?

Why should I do research for Moriarty? He most certainly has never agree to collaborate with me or with Merion about anything he's tried to do regarding researching their history.

Nevertheless, I would be glad to consider the questions he asked me in his initial post on this thread.

[TEPaul]

Also, Bradley, I would like to note the title of this thread David Moriarty begun---eg "The Missing LETTERS of Merion..."

That seems reminiscent of his essay, "The Missing FACES of Merion."

I wonder how much David Moriarty thinks is missing from the history of Merion, since he thinks Merion has misplaced letter and faces and God knows what else. We can't find the survey topo map they worked on to design Merion East and we can't find the drawings and sketches Francis wrote that Wilson brought back from abroad. Moriarty even mentioned Wilson may've brought Macdonald's sketches and drawing from abroad that he used for NGLA back to Philadelphia and misplaced them somehow so we cannot now find them.

And now we have Tom MacWood beating some kind of conflict of interest drum with Lloyd and his dealings with MCC and HDC!

Do you think those men from Merion back then really were into some concerted conspiracy to alter the actual facts of what they did back then by purposefully misplacing all this important material? If so, I would also very much like to know why!

[Bradley Anderson]

David:

I highly commend you for your friendly tone and appreciative words regarding the content and meaning of this potential new discovery of material on Lloyd and Macdonald and God only knows what else. I do hope that tone and atmosphere can and will continue on in the future on this subject and others as it seems our administrator is concerned about bad manners and boorish behavior over particularly this subject between posters. Let us hope this can create a new beginning and a new, beneficial and collaborative atmosphere between us all.

As Ben Crenshaw often says, “I will seriously consider" dealing with your questions above (to wit; in your first post question 1, 2 and 2). But I hope you will understand and appreciate that this material certainly does potentially bring up a most remarkable development with Merion that their world class golf course (Merion East) may have been designed by Macdonald and Whigam (and perhaps Barker) and that they will need to be given the time to consider that realization and how to deal with it and present it, not the least concern being that they may have completely misinterpreted the facts and details of their own architectural history, at least initially, and how to explain that. (I do offer as an example and analogy the way the realization of who designed North Shore GC played out and played out on here).

And of course, even though I did consider not mentioning it, this may require us here in Philadelphia to admit to you and Tom MacWood after years of contentious debate that you have been right all along about Merion East and we and the club have been wrong.

Nevertheless, it is my philosophy and belief that TRUTH should always and will always win out over speculation and rumor.
Thank You

Mr. Paul,

When I read this I thought it was genuine and serious.

[TEPaul]

Brad:

It is geniune and serious. Among other things I would like to see the tone and atmosphere on this website get better and in my opinion the most important subject on here that the tone and atmosphere could and should get better is Merion.

[Tom MacWood]

Brad
I agree with you, and I commend you for your courage.