It all starts at the end.

[Sean_A]

Pat

You never fail to hit form.  Winding you up isn't much different from doing the same to a plastic toy except the toys eventually break.  I  am guessing (but not willing to bet on it) you will probably figure out that many things are a matter of degree, but I am told you are well on the far side of 50 so you had better get your lessons in quick. 

Ciao

[JESII]

50?

He was on the far side of 50 when that 85 year old master putter he talks about was in knee highs...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I'm not sure how this devolved into a question of slope/hilly enough site, but to your initial point...do you think at a certain point higher handicaps players do not need to be tested with highly contoured greens?

Actually, I feel just the opposite.

Contoured and highly contoured greens don't require power and big, grooved swings.

High handicap players can aspire to be good to great putters, probably easier than becoming great ball strikers.

Some of the guys that I've been playing with for 45 years are good putters, unfortunately, 45 years has taken their toll on their ball striking abilities, so I think they'd welcome challenges on the putting surface more than challenges through the green.

I think they have a better chance of two putting than they do of getting to a green in regulation.

[JMEvensky]

Pat,

I'm not sure how this devolved into a question of slope/hilly enough site, but to your initial point...do you think at a certain point higher handicaps players do not need to be tested with highly contoured greens?

Actually, I feel just the opposite.

Contoured and highly contoured greens don't require power and big, grooved swings.

High handicap players can aspire to be good to great putters, probably easier than becoming great ball strikers.

Some of the guys that I've been playing with for 45 years are good putters, unfortunately, 45 years has taken their toll on their ball striking abilities, so I think they'd welcome challenges on the putting surface more than challenges through the green.

I think they have a better chance of two putting than they do of getting to a green in regulation.

Pat,I agree with your points about high handicappers being able to get proficient at putting much easier than ball striking.

However,you keep citing a guy who's played for 40 years.Unfortunately,a lot of clubs now have memberships with a majority of guys who haven't played for 40 months.They have no conception of what you're suggesting.Anything that smacks of increasing difficulty (read : unfairness),they're against.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JME,

I guess it boils down to what degree you want to dumb a course down for poorer/beginner players.

If you make the challenge mundane, how do you keep the golfer's interest ?

[Scott Warren]

Patrick:

How do you get from tee to green at #5?

There are several methods.
You can take the tram, in the woods to the right.
You can walk on the path to the woods on the left.
You can be driven from the tee to just left and behind the green in a car on the road that parallels the hole.
Or, you can walk down the front of the tee, swim across and then walk back up to the green
Or, you can take the club's helicopter which goes back and forth between the adjancent parking lot to the practice range, with stops at the 6th, 8th, 13th and 15th tees.

Your absurd reply says it all (and it was a great question from Niall).

To get from tee to green you walk down a steep hill and then up a steep hill... on a hole you contend is flat. Go figure.

Rather than rely on a single photo and the interpretation of two bozos who have never played the golf course...

Incorrect, Pat. Read reply #42 again with less red mist in your eyes.

[JMEvensky]

JME,

I guess it boils down to what degree you want to dumb a course down for poorer/beginner players.

If you make the challenge mundane, how do you keep the golfer's interest ?

You make the mistake of thinking as a golfer.The people who are now making the decisions don't have that frame of reference.

I agree with the idea that dumbing down a golf course would lead to diminished interest.Unfortunately,my own experience has been that this seems counterintuitive to a lot of guys.For them,easier = more interest.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

How do you get from tee to green at #5?

There are several methods.
You can take the tram, in the woods to the right.
You can walk on the path to the woods on the left.
You can be driven from the tee to just left and behind the green in a car on the road that parallels the hole.
Or, you can walk down the front of the tee, swim across and then walk back up to the green
Or, you can take the club's helicopter which goes back and forth between the adjancent parking lot to the practice range, with stops at the 6th, 8th, 13th and 15th tees.

Your absurd reply says it all (and it was a great question from Niall).

Three of my responses are accurate.

To get from tee to green you walk down a steep hill and then up a steep hill... on a hole you contend is flat. Go figure.

How many times have you made that walk ?
There are NO steep hills to descend or ascend

Rather than rely on a single photo and the interpretation of two bozos who have never played the golf course...

Incorrect, Pat. Read reply #42 again with less red mist in your eyes.

I read your post perfectly.

Here's what you stated

I did miss Pat's "nobody plays down near the water" before.
My member mate made a point of telling me on the tee that many of his mates among the membership are known in important rounds to lay up just over the water, [/b][/size]then pitch on, but what do I know...

I'll repeat, NO ONE lays up JUST OVER THE WATER.

Either your member mate is an idiot, or you didn't understand what he was telling you.
I'd wager that you didn't understand him, just like you don't understand me.



If you'd like to discuss a subject you're familiar with, I'd be happy to engage you.
On this one, you're all wet, probably from your swim across the intervening pond.

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

Your second read hasn't helped either.

You claimed I had not played the course. I have. Reply #42 makes that clear.

If you've been playing Pine Valley since 1964 and cannot identify the changes in elevation that occur between the tee and the green on #5, as well as on 2, 3, 4, 8, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18, then there is nothing I can say here that will change your mind. But hey, the first time you walked on the tee of this hole you thought it was a par four, so you do have some history of being mistaken...

[Stan Dodd]

Make sure you guys are facing downwind in this contest, you wouldn't want to get any you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Your second read hasn't helped either.

You claimed I had not played the course. I have. Reply #42 makes that clear.

Reply # 42 advocates playing down, just above the water on # 5..
In 46 years of playing PV, NO ONE has ever advocated that strategy.
It's amongst one of the dumbest, worst ideas I've ever heard of with respect to playing PV.

Here's what you said in reply # 42
[/color[

I did miss Pat's "nobody plays down near the water" before. My member mate made a point of telling me on the tee that many of his mates among the membership are known in important rounds to lay up just over the water, then pitch on, but what do I know...

How did I misread that reply, reply # 42

Tell us again how you and your mate advocate playing down into deep rough, just over the water, so that you can leave yourself a blind shot to a green that punishes shots hit long and/or right.

If you've been playing Pine Valley since 1964 and cannot identify the changes in elevation that occur between the tee and the green on #5, as well as on 2, 3, 4, 8, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18, then there is nothing I can say here that will change your mind.


Your reading comprehension skills need refining.
I never said that I couldn't identify elevation changes.  I cited more than a few.  But, elevation changes don't inherently make a golf course hilly and Pine Valley, with its elevation changes isn't a hilly/sloped course.

Is Shinneock a hilly golf course ?   Seminole ?
Both have elevation changes.

But hey, the first time you walked on the tee of this hole you thought it was a par four, so you do have some history of being mistaken...

Certainly not about the topography or how to play the 5th hole.
The first time I saw the hole it was impressive, walking from the 4th green to the back of the 5th tee, and looking at the green, it sure looked like a short par 4, and after analyzing the scores posted on that hole, especially from the back tee, it sure qualifies as a short par 4.

What did you score on the hole when you played it ?

[JESII]

Pat,

There is a contingent of older members that play the hole as Scott describes. The carry from the regular tees to the fairway is 140 or 150 slightly uphill. May not sound like much, but can your 85 year old friend do it with regularity? The problems faced in that garbage around the road make it prudent play for these guys since a primary goal for the day would be to minimize the unnecessary extra shots from the problem areas around the course. I'll admit, it's less than 10%, but Scott's friend is very likely in that group.


Another attempt to get back on point...I agree with your assesment of the ability for interesting greens to keep/drive an inferior players attention more than a mundane green but to JME's point, how do you educate those who initially react poorly to this facet of the game? Or do you? Is it time for golf to shrink a little?

[JMEvensky]

Another attempt to get back on point...I agree with your assesment of the ability for interesting greens to keep/drive an inferior players attention more than a mundane green but to JME's point, how do you educate those who initially react poorly to this facet of the game? Or do you? Is it time for golf to shrink a little?

I'll play.

IMO,there's a great need for remedial education.The downside of "growing the game" is that the game itself has been overlooked.Golf really works best when people are interested in more than just the playing of it.Somehow,all the non-playing aspects got ignored in a rush to sign up new congregants.

I hate to sound like an old fart,but just because a guy threatens to quit over a golf course's "unfairness",this doesn't mean that it should be dumbed down.It didn't use to work this way.The assumption was that a player tried to raise his own level;not bring the golf course down to his.

For most things in life,the lowest common denominator is a horrible goal.Some clubs will hold the line.But,most will be forced by demographics to appeal to the group for whom the challenge is something to be avoided.

Maybe it's something as simple as defining golf as a sport or a game.IMO,most look at it as a game--something to do socially/business-wise,a way to get out of the house with friends on Saturday morning.The last thing these folks want is to be challenged.It's hard to simultaneously read a green and flag down the beer cart.

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, do you think Bethpage Black would be a better course if its greens had more contours? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, do you think Bethpage Black would be a better course if its greens had more contours? 

Jim,

I do.

It's interesting to analyze the green complexes at BU, BL, Ridgewood, Fenway, Quaker Ridge, Shackamaxon and other nearby AWT's.

I'd like to know his thoughts on green complexes at each project.

Maybe Phil Young knows

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

There is a contingent of older members that play the hole as Scott describes.

Not by choice.

The carry from the regular tees to the fairway is 140 or 150 slightly uphill.

May not sound like much, but can your 85 year old friend do it with regularity?

The problems faced in that garbage around the road make it prudent play for these guys since a primary goal for the day would be to minimize the unnecessary extra shots from the problem areas around the course.


Scott indicated that the play was to a point just above the water.
That's about 70 yards from the forward tee (85 year old guys don't play from the regular tees, and if they do, they can hit it 150.)
It's about 99 yards to the mid-point in the hill in front of the road.
If one can't carry the ball 100-120-150 you'd have to question why they'd want to play PV.
Remember, PV was designed for Championship play and not typical club play.
Hitting just above the water is a dangerous play since it brings the water into play and the golfer would have to re-tee and face the same shot.  Hence, the widest and wisest margin of error lies well beyond the water, not just over it.

I'll admit, it's less than 10%, but Scott's friend is very likely in that group.


Another attempt to get back on point...I agree with your assesment of the ability for interesting greens to keep/drive an inferior players attention more than a mundane green but to JME's point, how do you educate those who initially react poorly to this facet of the game? Or do you? Is it time for golf to shrink a little?

Jim, as your Governor stated, we've become a nation of wussies and wimps.
Think back to when courses were penal and the ball and implements rudimentary.
OK, you can't go back that far, but, ask your dad.
Playing golf then was a real challenge.
And now, some want to dumb the game down to the lowest comon denominator so that beginers and inept golfers won't complain ?  ?  ?

The lure of the game is the inate challenge, the inability to master the game with little or no effort.
Part of the reason for the modern day quest for fairness is the emphasis on medal play.

If you and I are playing a match, and you make a 10 on # 5 and I make a 9, I'm happy, I beat you on that hole.
While I may not be thrilled with how I played, I'm thrilled by the fact that I beat you, I'm thrilled by the fact that I outplayed you and my medal score is irrelevant.

At match play golf is more of a game, a contest between two people on an architectural obstacle course.
Unfortunately, those consumed by score want to remove or soften most of the obstacles.
I want to re-insert them and/or make them harder.

Look at how well the game grew when it was harder.

So, can you not conclude that it's not the difficulty that's shrinking the game ?  ?  ?

[Forrest Richardson]

Greens are 33% of the match. Yes.

[Tom_Doak]

Forrest:  How'd you come up with 33% ?

The greens host a higher percentage than that of total shots.

Good greens affect approach shots or recovery shots.

The best greens affect where you want to place the tee shot, too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom and Forest,

With that in mind, do you sometimes design from the green back to the tee ?

[Forrest Richardson]

I am obviously a better putter than you.      (Or, maybe a horrid tee ball and approach player!)

I did some soul searching, and I would say that I have designed from the green back about 1 of 10 holes — usually, I think of holes from the beginning, but of course I have to consider the goal, too.