Nicklaus' 5th at Pebble vs. Fazio's 8th at Riviera

[MTWilkinson]

It seems that the USGA is hell bent on having Rees, and now Tom Fazio as their designated "Open Doctor".

If they're adament about having a "name" architect cover for them, why isn't Jack Nicklaus' organization in the fold?

Nicklaus' work at Pebble Beach and Fazio's work at Riviera is worth comparison.

Nicklaus' completely new 5th hole at Pebble works pretty well in my book.  It seems that Jack and Jim Lipe made a reasonable effort to study and emulate the style and concept of Pebble (the small green and bunker style) as created by Jack Neville, instead of forcing the Nicklaus imprint, even though the hole does call for a high fade.

Compare that to the Fazio/Tom Marzolf virtually new 8th at the Riv which looks and plays like...a Fazio hole.  I played it yesterday and it's...H O R R I B L E.  What I'm about to say I know is subjective, but there's a feel out there that the whole damn course has been "sanitized".

I feel bad for the Riviera membership, because the old Riv was a jewel, a shotmaker's dream, and perhaps the best "made" course from the Golden Age.  I wish the membership would buy out the current owner, bring in Doak or Geoff Shackelford to sandblast the Fazio graffiti off the golf course, and tell the USGA they're not welcome until they do what's right for the game re: technology instead of encouraging the f*****g up of the classics.

[Mike_Cirba]

MTWilkinson;

It's interesting that you used the word "sanitized".

Earlier today, a Geoff Shackleford article was posted that claimed that Merion had been "sterilized", if I remember the quote correctly.  

Perhaps the official Fazio team uniform should be some sort of sanitation worker jumpsuit, because they seem to have an obsessive aversion to anything the slightest bit messy, unkempt, or mildly naturally interesting.  

Other than charity cases for public goodwill, or Rees Jones's work for public golf at Bethpage, I have to ask....

Has any architect in history worked pro bono just to make a bigger name for himself ??  

Oh wait...I get it...he's doing it for the good of the game!!!  

[Ran Morrissett]

Apparently, Nicklaus was livid when he saw how the USGA set-up the 5th for the US Open - much of the left side off the green was intended to be maintained as short grass so that the player could use the slope to bounce his fade   onto the green. Instead, the USGA covered it with rough.

Though I've never seen the 5th set-up properly, it does sound like the hole would play well. Plus its front left to back right angle is a nice foil to the 17th green shape.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Mike,
    Rees renovated, re-designed, whatever you call it, the Duke U. course gratis in 1994.  Of course his dad did the original design and his daughter was going to school there at the time...

    It's actually one of the best courses in our area, a favorite of mine.  Not to mention there's no homes and most people walk.

[jonnyt]

Ran,
I played Pebble about a month ago and left of the green was mowed to fwy/collar hieght about 20 feet beyond the green surface. My low, punched shot bounced nicely off the left slope and fed to the front right hole location nicely. I thought the hole set up well and the short grass left of the hole makes for a great option on a windy day. Though I may be biased because of the outcome of my shot.

[APBernstein]

Is there a natural rejection of the hole because it is a Nicklaus-designed hole the requires, at first glance, a high fade?

From descriptions, it seems to me that the hole has more depth than people have originally given it credit for.

[MTWilkinson]

Andrew:

I think the 5th at Pebble is a credit to Nicklaus and his organization because he built a hole that looks like its fits at Pebble and DOES call for shotmaking, e.g., a high, soft fade (no matter how Nicklausian) or a punch low cut that uses the left ramp to feed it to the putting surface.

The 8th at Riv, on the other hand, looks like a Fazio hole, and plays like a Fazio hole, as if he and his staff never bothered to consider the style or architectural integrity of George Thomas.  A "Fazio hole", to me, means that it visually looks good but doesn't contemplate shotmaking.

[A_Clay_Man]

I think it a jump to a conclusion that a high fade is mandatory on the new fifth. I have seen a couple of tour boys use slight draws (virtually straight) with rewarded results and that is from the never never tees..
What I find interesting is how multi-dimensional the hole plays even from the shortish lengths of the whites.

I do think a high fade is the safest shot but rarely yields a two unless stuck.

[SL_Solow]

I believe Pete Dye did the Purdue course for $1.00.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Adam is right, the hole is not that long that it requires most pros to hit a high fade.  Also with the wind, I would not play a week high cut into it and the green and with the slope you don't have to.