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Brian_Ewen

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Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2010, 05:35:08 PM »
Simon
If there is one thing that this site celebrates is the access that Scottish golf courses allow visitors, so I dont see how any of us can champion what Loch Lomond golf club brought to Scotland.

I will never have an understanding of a badly designed US style golf course that looks totally out of place on Scottish soil, along with a policy in place to keep local golfers out .
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 05:36:53 PM by Brian_Ewen »

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2010, 05:44:12 PM »
It would please a lot on here if the Scottish Open or indeed English Open (for when it is in England) were rota'ed around the second tier of links courses.... Dundonald or Prestwick when at Troon or Turnberry, Kingsbarns or Fairmount when at TOC, Royal Aberdeen when at Carnoustie, Archerfield or Renaissance when at Muirfield. Formby, Hillside, Hesketh, Deal, Princes might all get turns whilst, Saunton, Burnham, Porthcawl might get some action. I think those courses could hold a more traditional tour event. Plenty of options.

Well it wouldnt please me ...... the Scottish Open should be held in ...... Scotland !
When it was in Scotland is the Scottish Open, if its in England its the English Open.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2010, 05:50:37 PM »
I would be fairy confident this course will open up to green fees albiet they might be the most expensive in the UK. The price will keep Loch Lomond high on a quality experience. The one thing that was never very good there though were the greens themselves, It must be a real struggle with the grasses they have to maintain good surfaces.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2010, 06:13:48 PM »
Brian,

I am not championing it, I am just understanding their product.  Again a whole other thread.

LLGC provides a beautiful place to play golf for people who pay a premium for conditioning and not having to wait behind other golfers for 5 hours.  If they want that then fine- I will not lose sleep over that.  Live and let live. 

I would love to play football at Old Trafford- it ain't happening anytime soon!  Why?  Conditioning.  Not sure Scholes would like tripping over on one of my divots (foot made, not club made!)

Kingsbarns would be a far better course IMHO with less play.  I have played there over 20 times and not once did I think it was in good condition.  A semi private model would definitely improve the condition of that course- again, I am not championing that, just understanding that some people have different priorities than having as many rounds played on their course as possible.

Where do you think would be able to handle the logistics of a Scottish Open that isn't already on the Open rota?

2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2010, 06:25:15 PM »
The Scottish Open already has a very good field so I can't see a change of venue improving the level of players who will play it.  If anything they want to ensure the new venue encourages those how already come to maintain coming.  It is the week before a major so chances are whatever venue you play it on that will rule out Tiger (no doubt the ultimate dream for the organiser), and some other top guys.

Do the pro's really want to play on links courses anyway?

Ross, At least one answer to your question is found in the article linked to in the first post.  Here's a quote from the article:

"But switching the event may not suit everyone. Swede Johan Edfors, winner at Loch Lomond in 2006, said: 'To play two links courses in succession just might too much for some players.  The Open is a hard enough week as it is, given the tough conditions you're likely get.'"

I agree.  Many professionals simply aren't good enough to play links courses two weeks in a row.  Although links courses are not a problem for the average recreational player, the professional tour golfer is a very delicate creature and the challenges of links courses two weeks in a row could destroy many of them.



 ;D ;D Truer words have never been spoken.

As for the topic at hand, I would love to see a tournament at Renaissance.  It has the length and space to do it, the course is phenomenal, it's in a good location to host, and the new holes on the Firth won't hurt either.  Plus, that would make it the first major professional tournament at a Doak course.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 06:28:05 PM by JNC_Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2010, 06:30:59 PM »
I wouldnt mind if Renaissance got the Scottish Open .

AGAIN, it might be my only chance of seeing the course  ::)

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2010, 06:47:17 PM »
Brian,

Please explain why you think Loch Lomond is poorly designed. First time I have heard that.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2010, 06:54:45 PM »
Sean
Its hard to comment when I havent played it.

But surely a course that has never been able to deal with the Scottish weather, is the wrong type of course in the wrong place ?

Or badly designed ?

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2010, 07:13:13 PM »
The Scottish Open already has a very good field so I can't see a change of venue improving the level of players who will play it.  If anything they want to ensure the new venue encourages those how already come to maintain coming.  It is the week before a major so chances are whatever venue you play it on that will rule out Tiger (no doubt the ultimate dream for the organiser), and some other top guys.

Do the pro's really want to play on links courses anyway?

Ross, At least one answer to your question is found in the article linked to in the first post.  Here's a quote from the article:

"But switching the event may not suit everyone. Swede Johan Edfors, winner at Loch Lomond in 2006, said: 'To play two links courses in succession just might too much for some players.  The Open is a hard enough week as it is, given the tough conditions you're likely get.'"

I agree.  Many professionals simply aren't good enough to play links courses two weeks in a row.  Although links courses are not a problem for the average recreational player, the professional tour golfer is a very delicate creature and the challenges of links courses two weeks in a row could destroy many of them.



 ;D ;D Truer words have never been spoken.

As for the topic at hand, I would love to see a tournament at Renaissance.  It has the length and space to do it, the course is phenomenal, it's in a good location to host, and the new holes on the Firth won't hurt either.  Plus, that would make it the first major professional tournament at a Doak course.

John,

As you can imagine I would also love that.  The 7400 yard tees are not there for the likes of you and me!  I am not going to lie that would be huge for the exposure of the club but it is certainly not the be all and end all.  The members come first so lets see what happens.  

All I know is that all the pros that have played there so far love it. (Matt Kuchar, Richie Ramsey, Sandy Lyle)  A few lower handicaps think there is a little too much room off the tees.  Once they have played a couple of times they usually change their opinion!  The width is there so we can all enjoy the place.  No one has gone really low, usually 68 and 69s are the order of the day (for the pros!!) even in flat calm conditions.  The greens provide a good challenge as you know!

I would still like to see a rotation of good links courses.  I think Renaissance has it all for hosting an event like this but there are lots of other very worthy candidates.  It is very flattering to be considered given our young age if indeed it goes away from LLGC.



2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2010, 10:26:35 PM »
Its hard to comment when I havent played it

agree...it should be hard to comment if you haven't played it...i was a member for eight very happy years (and got out just in time!) - Loch Lomond is a magnificent golf course...NOT a 'badly designed US style course', and it in fact looks perfect in its setting...clearly a links course wouldn't be any more natural in that setting, on that soil; the course is challenging yet fair, and eminently enjoyable to play; the variety of holes is terrific, and it playable by golfers of all calibers...it was clearly an ambitious plan to construct a golf course on what is reportedly the wettest site in Scotland, but previous ownership threw literally millions and millions of dollars into drainage/over-seeding, such that the course was in terrific condition virtually every time i played it (and frankly firmer and faster than my home course in New Jersey!) - I also don't understand Adrian's comment that 'the one thing that was never very good there were the greens themselves...'...really?  i couldn't disagree more...i wouldn't describe the greens as the strength of the course but they are very good, and with the exception of the unfortunate maintenance debacle coinciding with the Solheim Cup, i always found them to be in very fine condition

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2010, 10:45:46 PM »
On a different tangent . . .

It would seem to me that the Scottish Open could make sense for Turnberry instead of the Open Championship.  Yearly exposure, some good players in the field and less pressure on infrastructure. 

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2010, 03:18:39 AM »
Keith -They were sown with Pencross initially and it never worked. Then they battled with handweeding the Poa out, eventually losing the fight to Poa,then as you say they tried chemical treatments and that was a disaster. They probably shoud have gone with a European bent / fescue mix, which might be what they ended up with now.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2010, 05:07:45 AM »
Renaissance seems a good bet to me...Long enough and the owners actively want high profile tournaments (or at least did)...

Trump also seems a good bet for the future...

I would welcome both venues almost above all others...

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2010, 05:20:06 AM »
Renaissance seems a good bet to me...Long enough and the owners actively want high profile tournaments (or at least did)...

Trump also seems a good bet for the future...

I would welcome both venues almost above all others...

Ally
I couldnt disagree with you more .

The thought that the Scottish Open goes to another private course that does not want local golfers playing it, abhors me.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 05:21:39 AM by Brian_Ewen »

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2010, 05:41:31 AM »
Brian,

I think you abhor the idea, rather than the other way around!  I'm not sure I agree but I do understand your position.  I would have thought that a there can only be a limited number of Scottish links courses not on the open rota but with the size and infrastructure to host a European Tour event, though I understand the requirements are less than for the Open.

Royal Aberdeen and Murcar may be in the list.  Is Gullane?  The New Course?  Dornoch has the course but is surely too remote.

It seems to me the front runners may be Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart and Renaissance (if it qualifies as a links, I'm not certain on that) as they may be courses unlikely ever to get the Open but with the backing, size and desire to host an event.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2010, 05:44:23 AM »
Renaissance seems a good bet to me...Long enough and the owners actively want high profile tournaments (or at least did)...

Trump also seems a good bet for the future...

I would welcome both venues almost above all others...

Ally
I couldnt disagree with you more .

The thought that the Scottish Open goes to another private course that does not want local golfers playing it, abhors me.
Brian - Make your mind up, a few posts back you liked the idea.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2010, 06:03:41 AM »
Could Prestwick and Royal Dornoch be possibilities ? They have hosted British Amateurs' in the last 25 years

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2010, 06:06:50 AM »
It seems to me the front runners may be Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart and Renaissance (if it qualifies as a links, I'm not certain on that) as they may be courses unlikely ever to get the Open but with the backing, size and desire to host an event.

Mark, have we decided that Kingsbarns qualifys as a links ?

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2010, 06:14:23 AM »
Brian - Make your mind up, a few posts back you liked the idea.

Adrian - Looking back through my posts, I cant see where I said I liked the idea of Renaissance holding the Scottish Open ?

As Mark put it , the idea abhors me  ::)

And lets be honest here, how many BM's real reason for being happy if the Renaissance Club won the Scottish Open would be .... well as Mr JNC_Lyon put it :

Plus, that would make it the first major professional tournament at a Doak course.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 06:16:05 AM by Brian_Ewen »

Ross Tuddenham

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Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2010, 06:21:14 AM »
Given the infrastructure would be the same as for hosting an event at Muirfield or Renaissance could a possible host be Archerfield?  They held a ladies European tour event this year.

The more I think about it who would benefit from a pro event being held on one of the more classic links courses?  I am not sure the everyday player or the architectural enthusiast would.   

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2010, 06:29:24 AM »
Brian,

No, but the Dunhill organisers seem to have done so!  Interesting question, since KB is entirely artificial links, whilst RC is entirely natural (at least pretty much so).  RC seemed to me to be "almost links".  The ground is certainly sandy and it is in close proximity both to the sea and some of the best links land out there but it seemed to me to not quite feel like a links (this is in no way a criticism of RC, I thought it was an excellent golf course as hopefully my comments after playing it made clear).

Since Simon knows the course better than anyone and is a member at one of the great links clubs I'd be really interested in his view on this.  I'd also suggest that whether or not RC is true links it plays (and will, as it continues to bed in increasingly so) enough like a links to be a suitable venue for the Scottish Open, if the intention is to encourage top players to play as a preparation for the Open.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2010, 06:36:45 AM »
I wouldnt mind if Renaissance got the Scottish Open .

AGAIN, it might be my only chance of seeing the course  ::)
Blind as well.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2010, 06:39:06 AM »
Could Prestwick and Royal Dornoch be possibilities ? They have hosted British Amateurs' in the last 25 years
Kevin - I think Dornoch is just too remote, Prestwick could. Many might not want it though.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2010, 07:25:39 AM »
The venue is likely to go with the usual tour format, money. Prestwick and North Berwick will not pay to host the Scottish Open so unless the sponsor has the will to pay the club a facility fee of £50-100k and pay what the club is expected to pay to host the event it will go to a commercial club.
Cave Nil Vino

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2010, 07:38:33 AM »
Quite a few overseas golfers who have already qualified for the Open Championship take the chance to practise on links the week before the Open, but not in competition. This was how Tom Watson came to bring our attention to Ballybunion and Royal Dornoch. They want comparative peace, away from the media if possible. They will probably tolerate a few 'sporting' holes and the odd blind shot and probably don't care if the course is 6,300 or 7,500 yards as long as they get to adapt their game to links conditions.

Those natives and overseas players who have not already qualified will play in the Scottish Open wherever it is held simply as a last chance to qualify for next week's Open. But they wouldn't want quirk, sportiness, blindness or anything which might prejudice their outside chance of qualifying.

The rest of the field is there either to make money (hopefully), to gain Ryder Cup points, or because their sponsors require them to be there.

Not every professional golfer likely to participate in a Scottish Open has his own private jet. Those who sleep overnight in their camper van are not going to relish the road journey up to Dornoch or Castle Stewart if next week the Open is at Sandwich.

Assuming that potential spectators would make the journey north from the main centres of population, through the highlands to the likes of Dornoch, how is the hotel and road infrastructure for crowds of the size usually associated with the Scottish Open? How many spectators from the other UK countries and Europe in general attend at Loch Lomond because it is comparatively accessible from Glasgow, its airport and the motorway network?

It has been said that Southerness was originally intended to play at around 7,000 yards. Perhaps a few new tees could be inserted. But, please don't! That's such a gloriously remote place it would be a shame to spoil it.