News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2010, 09:42:43 AM »
I think if this tournament went permantly to links it would encourage a much better field of international players looking to practice/ play on ahead of the main Open, better players means more sponsorship. It would please a lot on here if the Scottish Open or indeed English Open (for when it is in England) were rota'ed around the second tier of links courses.... Dundonald or Prestwick when at Troon or Turnberry, Kingsbarns or Fairmount when at TOC, Royal Aberdeen when at Carnoustie, Archerfield or Renaissance when at Muirfield. Formby, Hillside, Hesketh, Deal, Princes might all get turns whilst, Saunton, Burnham, Porthcawl might get some action. I think those courses could hold a more traditional tour event. Plenty of options.
I like the rotation idea, keep it nearest to the Open courses.  And although Fairmont's Torrance is not a true links, it has the facility to hold the Scottish Open, and the experience of Dunhill and Scottish Senior Open.  Not sure how the Scottish Open would fare being held at the English courses!
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2010, 09:57:49 AM »
Not sure how the Scottish Open would fare being held at the English courses!

Probably pretty much like how the English Open has fared !


JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2010, 11:01:23 AM »
Are appearance fees allowed for the Scottish Open?

Financial and other considerations aside,would a Scottish Open played on a venerable links course be well received by the Scottish golfers,or is the site not a big deal?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2010, 11:21:39 AM »
Are appearance fees allowed for the Scottish Open?

Financial and other considerations aside,would a Scottish Open played on a venerable links course be well received by the Scottish golfers,or is the site not a big deal?

Any top tournament in Scotland, assuming it's not too far from the population centres, will draw a big crowd. I can't find 2010 Scottish Open crowd numbers that easily, but the 2009 tournament drew more than 80,000 spectators in total.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2010, 11:33:58 AM »
I would think that the Scottish Open would draw much better crowds in years that The Open itself is played in England.

But, I agree with Mark R., hardly any exempt players are going to play in the Scottish Open unless there is appearance money involved, whether it is at Loch Lomond or The Renaissance Club or Prestwick [seriously?].  Even so, I am sure that the modern courses listed (maybe not Kingsbarns) would put up some money to host the event, which would put them ahead of Prestwick and Dornoch in the queue.

As to whether or not The Renaissance Club is a true links, all I know is that it plays like one.  Really it is on the same soils as its next door neighbor, and I think more people would call it a links if they took down more of the trees ... but I actually like the trees and wish they would stop aimlessly cutting them.

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2010, 11:45:45 AM »
Brian,

No, but the Dunhill organisers seem to have done so!  Interesting question, since KB is entirely artificial links, whilst RC is entirely natural (at least pretty much so).  RC seemed to me to be "almost links".  The ground is certainly sandy and it is in close proximity both to the sea and some of the best links land out there but it seemed to me to not quite feel like a links (this is in no way a criticism of RC, I thought it was an excellent golf course as hopefully my comments after playing it made clear).

Since Simon knows the course better than anyone and is a member at one of the great links clubs I'd be really interested in his view on this.  I'd also suggest that whether or not RC is true links it plays (and will, as it continues to bed in increasingly so) enough like a links to be a suitable venue for the Scottish Open, if the intention is to encourage top players to play as a preparation for the Open.


I think the European Tour and Barclays would prefer it on a links style course as that would attract a better field.  End of.  Unfortunately I think we can put to bed any notion of it going to any course under 7000 yards.  That leaves a pretty short list of courses not on the Open rota.

We could go down the true links definition thing all day long.  I also still refuse to get into a discussion on the whole 'it isnt right that no local people can play debate'  I have to do that everyday at work and it bores me.  Local people can play at Renaissance if they can afford to.  Yes not many can, but not many can spend £150+ to play any of the Open courses. Over 60% of our members are local.  End of.

As what we should be talking about is the course, yes Renaissance runs hard and fast.  I think at times even Tom would be surprised when he hears which bunkers are well visited at the club.  It is very, very fast in mid summer.

I think we can all agree that North Berwick and the TOC are true links.  Well, I have made more pitch marks at those courses than at Renaissance.  I joke with people that I will give them a free membership if they can make a pitchmark!!

So a course that plays hard and fast and it is difficult to stop the ball on the greens.  It shares the same ground as Muirfield and has views of the sea that are much closer than the afforementioned Open course.  It has a mixture of bunkers with many rivetted which gather the balls as they run off line on the fairways.  Sounds like a links course to me!

While it might not be true links in a purest sense it certianly plays hard and fast and everyone who plays here thoroughly enjoys it.  The only people whoever grumble are those that have an axe to grind about private clubs.  I would love to play Muirfield everyday- I cant, but life goes on, and it doesnt bother me one little bit.

Lets see if the Masters, US Open or USPGA is taken to Bethpage and Torrey every year shall we?

One final point is that this will not be money driven from the club.  I cant see the likes of Kingsbarns etc paying either.  This is not the Ryder Cup.  My boss is as stubborn over money for marketing as he is over trees as Tom alluded to!

Tossing ideas around I am not sure how well 2013 would work if we did have it hear and then the Open at Muirfield the week after.  I agree with Toms notion that people may choose one or the other.

2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2010, 12:07:10 PM »
My wedge is on Kingsbarns getting it.  About time it had a full 4-day tournament.  I reckon Renaissance could do the job too.  Both can utilise the accommodation of their respective Open venue neighbours.  Castle Stuart would be lovely, but until the hotel is built and Inverness airport gets a better service, I think it's too far off the beaten track.  Maybe Dundonald as an outside bet.  Needs the exposure and the green fee boost.  It's always empty when I go past.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2010, 12:52:19 PM »
Robin
So you consider Kingsbarns a links course ?

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2010, 12:55:55 PM »
If the reports are correct and it is Barclays that are demanding a move to a links course.

Could it be possible that Mr. Mickelson is behind it ?

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2010, 01:14:49 PM »
I would imagine Mr. Mickelson will do whatever Mr. Diamond and Barclays money wants him to do!

My money would be on Kingsbarns, not sure if Castle Stuart is logistically viable or provides enough of a challenge off the tee.   As much as I would love to see it at Renaissance, both for our exposure and my curiousity of how the pros would play it, I am not sure if we are quite ready yet.  We could hold it but we have lots of other things going on.

Turnberry or Troon could well get it.  What about East Coast one year, West Coast the next?
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #60 on: October 20, 2010, 01:28:13 PM »
I was under the impression that the reason it was moving from Loch Lomond was that the club, or the new owners didn't want to continue paying for the privilege of hosting. That being the case, and taking the Open rota courses out of the equation for reasons previously stated, how many courses both links and inland are actually capable of hosting from a) a financial point of view, b) a logistical point of view, and c) lastly from a course design point of view ? I might also add to the discounted list, courses that aren't already hosting a tour event.

Any thoughts ?

Niall

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2010, 01:45:06 PM »
As much as I would love to see it at Renaissance, both for our exposure and my curiousity of how the pros would play it, I am not sure if we are quite ready yet.  We could hold it but we have lots of other things going on.

Simon
If Renaissance was in the running, would you not be aware of this by now ?

http://sport.scotsman.com/golf/Links-switch-looms-for-Scottish.6589895.jp
THE Scottish Open, which has been held at Loch Lomond since 1996, could be heading to a new venue after the European Tour confirmed it is in discussions with "four or five" links courses at the request of sponsors Barclays.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2010, 01:45:52 PM »
Are appearance fees allowed for the Scottish Open?

Financial and other considerations aside,would a Scottish Open played on a venerable links course be well received by the Scottish golfers,or is the site not a big deal?

I'm sure Phil got a fee through his Barclays affilation.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #63 on: October 20, 2010, 01:56:13 PM »
Niall

I take it KB is out of your thinking due to the Dunhill?  I am not sure if it should be as TOC managed 2 tourneys this year.

What courses were in your mind Niall?  The Bay is not a bad call.

Brian- I am happy to debate which courses would be good and try my hardest to not be biased. I obviously cannot answer your question, much like I said no comment to the many newspapers that called today.  I thought about not posting on this thread at all but I enjoy the analysis of the courses.

If we get it great.  If not I will not be crying about it.

2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #64 on: October 20, 2010, 02:13:44 PM »
If Kingsbarns is being called a links, does that put the Castle Course in the running ?

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2010, 02:16:43 PM »
Why not?  Other than the fact there seems to be quite a few negative comments about the greens.  I thought the Castle was good fun.

I take it you don't think KB is a links?  Care to expand?  How would you describe it to someone who had never played here?
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #66 on: October 20, 2010, 02:39:08 PM »
Simon

Interesting, would KB want to host the Dunhill and the Scottish Open. I'm not sure. Is KB tied into the Dunhill for the next few years ? Possibly if not probably. Would KB prefer the Scottish rather than the Dunhill if it were free to pick only one ? Probably. I guess theres sort of answer in there.

St Andrews Bay is certainly a good possibility having already hosted senior events. Beyond that theres possibly Archerfield or the Renaissance and you would know better than anyone whether they are realistic options. Thats only 3 I can think of. Not a lot of choice.

Niall

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #67 on: October 20, 2010, 02:47:40 PM »
Yeah, I suppose Archerfield could have it.  I hadn't even thought of that.

I hope this doesn't appear out of line as I think it is a fantastic facility and I have a great relationship with them, it is competition for us of sorts, but the golf courses are night and day.  If they are moving from LLGC in the first place is down to both the members not wanting it (if newspaper is to be believed) and Barclays and/or the Tour wanting it at a links course then they will still want some of the attributes of LLGC.

It was at LLGC in the first place due to its stunning location (good for TV and corporate schmoozing) so I would imagine they would want a course that is visually impressive.  Sadly Archy doesnt have that.

Kingsbarns def does have that in abundance which is why I would think it could well go there.  Was the Bay not supposed to be replacing Carnoustie in the Dunhill rotation to improve logistics?  Or was that yet another rumour?

Come on Brian- give us your take on Kingsbarns so we can talk architecture!
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #68 on: October 20, 2010, 02:49:21 PM »
Niall- Maybe it will go somewhere for a few years but Trumpton would be the likey suitor from about 2014. If the intention is to make that something then it will buy the Scottish Open. I guess the problem with the SO is it is governed/owned by PGA (ET) which would not perhaps act in the best interests of Scotland in which it will be a case of "place your bets gentleman..highest hand wins".
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2010, 02:53:50 PM »
Adrain

I strongly suspect you are right about Trump. While I am against the way the course is being built into the SSSI and the mickey mouse way the planning was handled by the politicians, it would be great for NE golf and I don't doubt that Trump will be up for it. And as I said before it might give him some leverage with the R&A.

Niall

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #70 on: October 20, 2010, 02:59:45 PM »
Come on Brian- give us your take on Kingsbarns so we can talk architecture!

Simon
I have always really enjoyed Kingbarns, but I just wonder if we can call it a links ?

There is better qualified people than me on this forum ....... but I am not sure if we can ?

Maybe Herb Kohler will decide that The Dukes isnt "St.Andrews only Heathland course" after all , declare its a links , and throw his hat in the ring as well  ;)

Isnt St.Andrews Bay called 'The Kittocks' nowadays ? ...... I know I cant keep up either  ;)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 03:01:19 PM by Brian_Ewen »

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #71 on: October 20, 2010, 06:56:18 PM »
Come on Brian- give us your take on Kingsbarns so we can talk architecture!

There is better qualified people than me on this forum ....... but I am not sure if we can ?


Cleerly un inglush, ther ur.
 8)
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #72 on: October 20, 2010, 08:26:47 PM »
Seriously, I would like to see it played at Western Gailes.  Could it happen?  Probably not.  But the Scottish Am will be held there in 2011.  http://www.westerngailes.com/
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 08:28:33 PM by Carl Johnson »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2010, 01:34:31 AM »
It seems like all parties are agreeing to take it away from Lomond ASAP.  I wonder if the organisers had discussions with any links courses before they announced this plan.

I know it isn't a links but the other place that might make a bid for an event like this is the new"6*" Hotel development adjacent to Gleneagles. Any news on when the Kidd course will be ready?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open heads to the links
« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2010, 03:55:02 AM »
Robin
So you consider Kingsbarns a links course ?

It's not a links course in the strict definition of the term, but then I don't think they were being slavish to geomorphic correctness in the press statement.  Kingsbarns offers 'links' conditions in a 'links' environment, ie; hard by the sea shore.  I think that's basically what they are looking for. 

It deserves it's own tour event.  It gets my vote.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back