[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

It's quite obvious that one way to add variety to a golf course, is to make the greens wider. Used thoughtfully, and in conjunction with wide fairways, they can provide additional variety in approach angles, and as a consequence, make the game more interesting.

One might say that wider greens will in turn translate into larger greens and as a consequence, an automatic increase in costs, but it need not necessarily be so. If one were to limit (and I use this word very loosely) the use of wide greens to holes where the approach shot is in the 100-150 yds range, the length of the green need not be so great.

There is also another good reason for limiting wide greens to holes where the approach shot is in the 100-150 yds range. The angle subtended by a 50 yard wide green at a distance of 200 yds, is not as great as the angle subtended at a distance of 100 or 150 yards. Therefore, a wide green on a long par 4 will not provide as much variety in angles as a wide green on a short par 3.

I'm not suggesting that all short approach shots should be played to wide greens - with overuse, this would become a bit tiresome - but it would be interesting if one or two holes on every course had wide greens. There are also practical issues to be considered, such as routing the course, that limit where a wide green can be located.

What are your favourites and why?

Why don't we see wide greens used more in today's designs?

[Bill_McBride]

Tobacco Road's 6th hole, a short par 3, fits this description well.




The hole is only 148 yards from the back tees and usually plays shorter, nine irons and wedges.  But the great width and shallow depth makes this a more difficult test of shotmaking than apparent from the scorecard.

This is sort of the opposite of a Macdonald/Raynor "Short," where the green is huge and the test is to get close enough to avoid 3 putts.

[Tom_Doak]

Donal,

I am trying that very idea on a couple of holes in Florida.  I was inspired by watching the telecast of the Open at St. Andrews where so many holes fit the description.

[PCCraig]

Donal,

Interesting post. It's a neat idea but wouldn't it be limited by the size of a particular property? A hole like the one illustrated above by Bill would take up alot of space for a shorter hole, no?

However, I do wish more architects built par-3's with multiple tees for new angles and lengths for variety from play-to-play. The Dunes Club in Michigan did a particularly good job in building variety into their par-3's...but that was needed with it being a private nine-hole course.

[Matt_Ward]

Frankly, I like to see greens which are narrow but deep. Puts more pressure on the player for accurate yardage to the target and if you have fall-off to the sides can make for challenging recoveries. C&C did that w Clear Creek and it works very well.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Bill,

Your example from Tobacco Road is exactly what I'm thinking of. Judging from the diagram of the 6th, you have "width" as well from the multiple tee boxes. It just shows that with a little imagination, you can make a short hole play very differently from day to day.

Tom,

I guess St. Andrew's is the course everyone thinks off when it comes to wide (and long - because of the wind) greens. It's great that you're working with this idea. Do you have to consider the influence of wind at your site in Florida?

[Jim Eder]

I am thinking of the 14th at Riviera, very wide.  I am a bit more in Matt's camp, I like the more narrow and deep. I do really like the Tobacco Road example, looks wonderful.

[Bill_McBride]

I am thinking of the 14th at Riviera, very wide.  I am a bit more in Matt's camp, I like the more narrow and deep. I do really like the Tobacco Road example, looks wonderful.

Donal's not talking about every green being wide and shallow, just one or two a round.   Variety is the spice of life - and golf as well.   

[Jim Eder]

Agreed.   

[David Mulle]

Tobacco Road's 6th hole, a short par 3, fits this description well.




The hole is only 148 yards from the back tees and usually plays shorter, nine irons and wedges.  But the great width and shallow depth makes this a more difficult test of shotmaking than apparent from the scorecard.

This is sort of the opposite of a Macdonald/Raynor "Short," where the green is huge and the test is to get close enough to avoid 3 putts.

Interesting, when I first read your post, I assumed you were talking about the 9th hole at Caledonia (although it is shorter than the 6th at TR).  As someone who has had limited exposure to Strantz courses, I wonder whether this is a theme he returned to mulitple times. 

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Frankly, I like to see greens which are narrow but deep. Puts more pressure on the player for accurate yardage to the target and if you have fall-off to the sides can make for challenging recoveries. C&C did that w Clear Creek and it works very well.

Matt,

I think that greens sites like the you've described above should be utilized more often; the 6th green at Ballybunion is one of my favourites.  But accurate yardage is more critical with wide and shallow greens.

I just would like to see more variety when it comes to the orienatation of greens. The majority of greens I've seen are usually deeper than they are wide. I don't consider a shot that ends up pin high 20 left or right of the hole any worse than one that finishes 20 feet short or long of the hole. Wider greens give better players the freedom to work the ball, while at the same time not unduly punishing the less accurate weaker player. The character of a hole with a wide green can change from day to day, depending on the hole location. It's the variety of angles I'm talking about; something you don't get with narrow greens.

Pat,

I agree; if the land is available, then why not go for a wide green. But I'm not talking about 100 yds wide like St. Andrews. A green 50 yds wide can really change the way a hole plays, and more often than not, it's possible to fit one in somewhere on a course.

[Carl Nichols]

Frankly, I like to see greens which are narrow but deep. Puts more pressure on the player for accurate yardage to the target and if you have fall-off to the sides can make for challenging recoveries. C&C did that w Clear Creek and it works very well.

Don't narrow but deep greens require accuracy [since they're narrow], but not accurate yardage [since they're deep]? 

[Jim Briggs]

Donal,

I think the 8th at Hidden Creek is in synch with your ideas.  Its a short par 4 (and therefore a shortish approach), green is wider than deep, and there is a centerline bunker that in conjunction with pin placement (and the buried volkswagen in the middle of the green) really makes you think about angles and what side of the bunker/fairway you want to be approaching from.

The hole is one of the holes of note in Ran's write up on Hidden Creek.

[Jim Eder]

The slope of the green will also matter in the wide/thin or narrow/deep thought. From back to front (or front to back) or from right to left like the 14th at Riv (or left to right). In the wide/thin one will have sidehill puts while the narrow/deep will be more uphill or downhill.

I have always loved the diagonal from lower left to upper right like Augusta's 12th where a weak fade by a right hander ends up short (in trouble) and the pull ends up long and left (in trouble).

Then of course the different angles available in the wide/thin.......................

[Carl Nichols]

I wish my home course had one green that was wide and shallow, while also not being angled.  Every green that is wider than deep is angled, and while that design can allow for variation, it doesn't require nearly as much distance precision.

[John Moore II]

Tobacco Road's 6th hole, a short par 3, fits this description well.




The hole is only 148 yards from the back tees and usually plays shorter, nine irons and wedges.  But the great width and shallow depth makes this a more difficult test of shotmaking than apparent from the scorecard.

This is sort of the opposite of a Macdonald/Raynor "Short," where the green is huge and the test is to get close enough to avoid 3 putts.

Interesting, when I first read your post, I assumed you were talking about the 9th hole at Caledonia (although it is shorter than the 6th at TR).  As someone who has had limited exposure to Strantz courses, I wonder whether this is a theme he returned to mulitple times. 

At Royal New Kent, Strantz has a couple of holes where they are very wide from certain angles and narrow from others, depending on tee placement or shot selection. The 6th at Tobacco Road can also play very narrow as there is the other set of tees that play nearly 90 degrees different from the main set. I can't think of any holes at Tot Hill Farm with very wide greens. The 17th at Tobacco Road has a very wide green as well, so does 15.

The only problem with these is that they force precision in distance control. So, many public courses tend to steer away from them because they are not very easy. Not to mention, they are 'different' so since golf courses don't want to do anything 'different' because heaven forbid they do anything that no one else does.

This ties in with other stuff I have talked about lately. Same as long golf courses, wild greens, really short and really long holes, and any number of other options. They don't exist as often as they could because no one has the guts to build them.

[Wade Schueneman]

Sounds like a great idea on a mid-length par 5 as well.  How about 14 at TOC?  The width of the green, the diagonal nature of the fronting ridge, the angles of approach, the wind, the fact that an approach may range from 30 yards to 260 yards . . . they all add up to make for a hole that provides almost endless possibilities. 

Interesting topic.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

The only problem with these is that they force precision in distance control. So, many public courses tend to steer away from them because they are not very easy. Not to mention, they are 'different' so since golf courses don't want to do anything 'different' because heaven forbid they do anything that no one else does.

John,

If an architect is concerned about "force precision in distance control", by all means make the green deeper if possible, but keep with the idea of a green that is wider than the norm. I don't advocate making it as difficult as the 12th at Augusta; that green seems to be too narrow for even the best golfers in the world.

Wade,

As Tom alluded to above, St. Andrews makes use of this concept throughout the course, and combined with its wide fairways, it must be one of the most interesting courses there is out there.

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