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Melvyn Morrow

To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« on: October 18, 2010, 08:02:20 AM »

must be close to the ultimate goal for most if not all Designers. The knowledge that your name will forever be linked with the beating heart of the golfing world must come close to satisfying the majority of one’s inward ambitions.

This is not a veiled attack upon The Castle Course or for that matter the architect Joe Kidd but a serious exercise as to the thoughts and opinions of other Designers regards three issues
a)   The Location of the Course
b)   The Finished Course Design
c)   Was the finished product worth the financial outlay
As I have previously mentioned (to make it totally clear), this thread is not intended as an attack but to judge the merit of the location and the finished article remembering the overall cost to produce this course. GCA.com is a site that is into GCA, so I was wondering what the opinions of our designers/architects are related to the above mentioned 3 issues.

The following photographs are just to remind (for those that have not seen the site) in its virgin guise circa 2002 and todays finish product. I have also taken the liberty of using the Links Trust site course guide plan on a hole for hole basis, Well the first 9 Holes.

Before & After Photos












The Castle Course -  Holes Guide for Holes 1 - 9




















Will anyone commit themselves on the architectural merits of this course or do we by your silence presume that you have many misgivings. Clearly Mr Kidd has produced some very interesting courses which have been rather well received by the golfing world.

Any thoughts?

Melvyn 

Mark Pearce

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2010, 08:11:16 AM »
Melvyn,

Joe Kidd?  Is he David's brother?

I haven't played the course, so can't comment.  I don't think it is possible to judge a course on a few photographs and a course planner.  My wife has played it, as the guest of a resident so for a fraction of what it would cost me to play.  She enjoyed it but commented that a) it didn't feel like there were any real options off the tee, the strategy was forced on her and 2) the greens were great fun but only if you didn't mind making the occasional 4-putt.

Based on her review I'm unlikely to drop over Ł100 to play it but if one of my few R&A contacts were to ask me up there at a reduced green fee I'd be very keen to form my own opinion.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mac Plumart

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2010, 08:14:49 AM »
I've never heard of Joe Kidd, so I can't comment on his past work.  The Castle Course looks pretty interesting to me, I hope to play it one day and offer my opinions to GCA.

Melvyn...to your three questions

a)   The Location of the Course
b)   The Finished Course Design
c)   Was the finished product worth the financial outlay


I think the location of the course is important, but I think Sand Hills has shown that building a great course is what is most important.

Which leads into your second poing, the finished course is very important.

And regarding your last point, I think that can only be answered by the owner and it has a a lot to do with their objectives.  Lots of resort courses don't need to be epic Top 100 type of courses.  They just need to be fun and appropriate for the resorts target market.  Furthermore, peoples local golf clubs don't need to be epic courses either...they just need to be good for the members to enjoy playing every day.  So, if the owner and inherently the target market is happy...then the finished product was worth the outlay.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2010, 08:22:32 AM »

Mark

Must have been thinking of Clint or was it subconscious error as perhaps I feel it’s a bit of a cowboy (the course I mean).

The question was aimed at the designers who know the course, with the photos and course guide to assist those who do not know it if we get an input from ay designers. They have not been included to help make an opinion.

Melvyn

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2010, 08:26:56 AM »
I think that designing any golf course at the home of golf must be very high on every architect's wish list...

...And I think that given the site that they were given, David Kidd & Paul Kimber have done an excellent job with The Castle Course...

If they hadn't shaped significant movement in to that site, what would we have had aside from four cliff holes and fourteen playing up, down and across a field?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2010, 08:45:21 AM »
Melvyn,

Interesting take on the topic.  If I were so lucky as to get a commission like that, I think I would be inclined to try to forget where the design was and what it was being compared to, or I would never be able to lift pen to drafting paper!

It would also appear that David took the approach of trying both his more or less "standard stuff" rather than trying to emulate the older courses, and probably for good reason. 

First, does a golf resort need one more course styled like its first one?  Would that draw customers, given that it certainly can never match the history of the original?

Second, if the Trust picked him, they must feel his style is worthy.

Third, and as mentioned, a completely new style for the town (although Kyle Phillips may be deemed similar, I suppose) makes the course get judged on its own merits, rather than on comparitive merits.

Lastly, it was a flat field, with little internal contour for interest.  Forgetting where he was, it was obvious it needed to be shaped completely.  So, the question is, what style?  Subtle, dramatic, trying to replicate dunes found in other areas of Scotland, or Shadow Creek style, dramatically elevating and sinking the property?  Given the proximity of the ocean, Shadow Creek was probably out, as its style is geared to blocking out external views.  DMK probably threw out the subtle approach for reasons above, leaving him with a low profile (not any really, really, high features) that are very dramatic.

I haven't actually seen the course, so I am answering in theory (and broad theory at that, not looking at any of the individual hole designs) but I thought the question, posed to other gca's, deserved an early answer.  I will be interested to see what others might say.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2010, 08:56:05 AM »
For those who have played, and for those who are just looking at the hole pix presented by Melvyn ( presumably from the yardage books) would anyone comment on the 8th green, which looks to have a gathering swale in the middle of the green, directing balls landing there to bunkers about 15 yards off the green edge?  How did you like the idea of hitting the middle of the green, and ending up with a long bunker shot?  Granted, its a 141 yard max shot, so it may fit very well.  Just curious.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2010, 09:04:57 AM »
Jeff,

8 is a difficult green to hold no dout... But as you state it's short (plus it's downhill)... Best of all, it plays more or less the same distance from all tees with difficulty being introduced purely by angles... I like it a lot as it's a really clear example that holes can be made more difficult in other ways than just increasing the length of them...

Bill_McBride

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2010, 09:09:11 AM »
For those who have played, and for those who are just looking at the hole pix presented by Melvyn ( presumably from the yardage books) would anyone comment on the 8th green, which looks to have a gathering swale in the middle of the green, directing balls landing there to bunkers about 15 yards off the green edge?  How did you like the idea of hitting the middle of the green, and ending up with a long bunker shot?  Granted, its a 141 yard max shot, so it may fit very well.  Just curious.

There appear to be two tiny mini-green targets: in front of the swale and beyond the swale. I think it would be better if the swale funneled shots into a lower part of the green where a difficult two putt might still be possible. Into a deep bunker seems OTT to me for a shot hit into the center of the green!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 10:06:06 AM by Bill_McBride »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2010, 09:45:23 AM »

Jeff

Certainly have issues with the site but that’s a combination of personal reasons and the unsuitability of that location to father a golf course.

As for David’s efforts (not Joe), I feel he gave exactly what was expected a total mix match of contours and features neither of which favoured the other. I feel the Links Trust did themselves a disfavour by picking that location, I would go further and say its represented zero towards the St Andrews experience of golf, or that of Fife in fact I would say of Scotland too. The location was selected as having a St Andrews post mark and for no other reason.

Given a free choice by a client would you or any architect have selected that site for a course, remembering this is Scotland where we expect the site to conform in part to Nature. Its probably all those years of wandering around with a kilt and nothing underneath that makes us want to feel the coolness of Nature close by hand.

I have always been supportive of the Links Trust, however this time they put money first forgetting golf.  The Castle Course seems to be the combination of 'that’s where its F#@k#@g Going and that is that'. It’s a policy that I feel sit poorly in Scotland, its bites at our very being. Golf is a way of life to many of my fellow countrymen and so more care and consideration should be taken. To see the land ripped to shreds before being converted into a hideous amusement park, is not how many like to see the land treated, certainly if the intention is for Golf. You never know, but perhaps we had a strong connection to you own Native Americans in the way they consider the land. Whatever work with the land, not strip it bear because it is not fit for purpose.

The Castle cost too much but then it was inevitable by selecting that site in the first place leaving the designers to somehow come up with a face saving course that would justify and most certainly cover up most if not all the errors. Alas IMHO the cracks are starting to appear and more money is required to resolve the problems. I love the way the course has confused its critics, by charge a fortune for Green Fees the critics are wonder what they have missed and toning down their comments just in case they have missed something. Of course they missed something  - the bloody course should have been built upon that location.

Melvyn

Mark Pearce

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2010, 10:02:50 AM »
It would be interesting to know how many green fees have been paid to play the Castle and whether there is a trend.  Does anyone know if this information is available?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Anthony Gray

Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2010, 03:51:45 PM »


  The elevation change makes it difficult to turn that land into a links course I would imangine.

   Anthony


Michael Dugger

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2010, 04:16:15 PM »
This thread reads like a veiled attack to me. ::)

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Melvyn Morrow

Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2010, 08:28:15 PM »

Michael

Many know my position on this course, it should never have been built on the land it currently occupies. It’s to make money out of the name of St Andrews and its IMHO does not represent a true Scottish Golf Course.

The point of my post was to try and get a debate from the designers on this site who tend to duck the question when a design is questioned. I was hoping that this example would be discussed in length not by us but mainly by those who make a living designing and supplying golf courses. I wanted to understand if the late 20 and early 21st Century Designers had an passion, as we are talking about the Home of Golf.

As usual Michael, you add sweet FA to a debate, just pointless spite.

Melvyn

Anthony Gray

Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2010, 08:28:36 PM »
For those who have played, and for those who are just looking at the hole pix presented by Melvyn ( presumably from the yardage books) would anyone comment on the 8th green, which looks to have a gathering swale in the middle of the green, directing balls landing there to bunkers about 15 yards off the green edge?  How did you like the idea of hitting the middle of the green, and ending up with a long bunker shot?  Granted, its a 141 yard max shot, so it may fit very well.  Just curious.

  There are swales on every green.Sometimes your ball catches one and goes toward the hole and sometimes it is carried away from the hole.This is the ultimate course for local knowledge.

   Anthony



Bill_McBride

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2010, 08:38:27 PM »
This thread reads like a veiled attack to me. ::)



"Veiled?". Hardly, it's a very upfront attack.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2010, 08:50:21 PM »


Bill

Let’s not forget that the courses are meant to be the property of the townsfolk of St Andrews

Melvyn

Bill_McBride

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2010, 08:58:39 PM »


Bill

Let’s not forget that the courses are meant to be the property of the townsfolk of St Andrews

Melvyn


Understood. I'm sure there was a great deal of planning and strategizing that went into the decision to build the Castle Course, which was was apparently needed to relieve the pressure for tee times on the Old.

I'm sure profit to the townspeople was a consideration. I would hate to see St Andrews grow out of control, but the town planning always seems to be well done.

Do you think the apparently successful Kingsbarns was a model?

Was other land, say 150 acres, available to the Links Trust?

Michael Whitaker

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2010, 01:07:29 AM »
Melvyn,

I'm confused... are you back to playing golf? I thought your physical ailments kept you from the game. If not, have you played the Castle Course or are you just commenting from photos and reports? Thanks for clarifying. 
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2010, 06:11:34 AM »
Melvyn

As a designer and indeed as the runner up in the design competition for the No. 7 course, maybe I can add something worthwhile to your thread.

If anybody has a right to pour scorn on David Kidd's design it is probably me, as had I won that commission, my career path would probably be very different by now, but...I like it...a lot.  I've played the course twice now and had a thoroughly good time on both occasions.  I enjoyed the sporty nature of the design and admired the creativity that David, Paul Kimber, Mick McShane and the rest of his team displayed in transforming what were a very dreary set of muddy fields (albeit with a tremendous streatch of coastline) into an exciting, strategic and visually stimulating golf course.  I look forward to my next game there and to hopefully many more.

I certainly felt that this was a site that called for a degree of 'creationism'.  It offered a great deal in terms of prospect, but the inherent topographic and vegetative interest was minimal, save for a small furze covered hill near the entrance.  Don't forget also that the town's sewage treatment plant is slap bang in the centre of the site.  DMK have done a tremendous job of making this 'disappear', to the extent that it barely registers visually.  The landscape screening of this structure would have steered my shaping concept, as it has DMK's.  I doubt that the 'before' landscape was natural.  Agricultural practices had removed any trace of landform interest.

Also, given the adjacent 36-hole complex of the St. Andrews Bay courses, with their heavily shaped courses, it is misleading to see this landscape as being entirely out of place with its surroundings.  Turn the camera around and the entire ocean frontage for two miles or more looks much like this.  We gather that this isn't your preference and that is fair enough, but a minimally shaped golf course, on this site and with the requirements of the brief to create a course to relieve the marquee courses in the town, would not have cut the mustard.  Yes, it is controversial and yes it is not to everyone's taste, but it is bold, exciting and fun...in my opinion.

It is a great location, but was not a great site.  Was it worth the money?  It is far too soon to know the answer to that.  I would imagine the Links Trust has planned for a fairly lengthy investment return schedule.  Certainly more than 5 years and probably nearer 10 before they can make a call on that.  Is it a worthwhile addition to the golfing lexicon of St. Andrews? Yes, absolutely it is.

Melvyn, I don't intend to try to change your mind about the place. It's pretty clear to us all what you think.  But, I like it and would be proud to have that course, exactly as it is, in my portfolio.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2010, 07:20:11 AM »
Speaking strictly as to the design, since I always think that "shouldn't have been put THERE" argument is difficult to assess, I had a few thoughts. I hate to offer them because, a) its from pictures and b) it sounds like sour grapes, even though I was NEVER in contention for the commission, like Robin H.

I tend to agree with Robin that it required some creationism.  It strikes me from pictures that it might bear some discussion on what he did within the context of that need.  Specifically, do the faux links features conform too much to the golf holes rather than appearing random?  In one sense, it appears that the hole corridors were laid in, and the small mounds/ridges, etc. were laid too much to the side, not unlike we might critique Rees Jones or others for. 

Am I the only one that thinks that?  Is it as apparent from ground level as from those aerials?  Would a more random mix, some crossing the fw have been more effective?  Would more variation in vertical heights given some more variety?

Just asking, and trying to help productive discussion along with specifics, since it was a good, but broad opening question by Melvyn.  It seems Melvyn did take a real broadside swipe - at God for not providing the natural contours in the location selected for the golf course.  And he wonders if DMK has done God's work by adding more?  OR is it the work of the devil? (add smiley)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Melvyn Morrow

Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2010, 07:35:12 AM »

Robin

Thank you for your open an honest comment. In my time at GCA.com  you with just a hand full of others have actually talked about the matter in hand and not gone and attacking me for daring to question the current state of GCA in GB.

The site required far more than a “ degree of 'creationism'” it was IMHO such a bad choice the site required a total ‘Terraforming’ transformation. This is one subject that I feel needs to be addressed as I humbly believe that no golf course should suffer such a birth. To ignore the land and the natural Nature of the landscape is tantamount to producing a still born course. Modern ideas seem based upon archaeology which destroys the very thing it seeks during the dig process. Or should I say it offers a blank canvas once the destruction process has been completed.  My point being that the selection of the site is paramount, it sets the standards of the end product, so great care should be taken during this initial process. However in our modern throw away world we are apt to dispose of the very thing that attracted us to the location in the first place which seems counterproductive, but that’s the irony behind modern GCA.

What has actually been produced is not a Home of Golf,  Golf Course but more coping the lines of Kingsbarn not St Andrews, which I would  accept as long as it was not meant to represent a St Andrews Golf Course. Yet there is another problem its not a Links Course, its not a an easy walk from the town. Forget how the course plays because its alien to the natural surround so can and should not represent that which it is not, which asked the question just what is it mean to be.

As a golf course you find it fun and enjoyable, as a representative of St Andrews golf I reject it as it design has rejected the natural landscape.

I feel that as designers there is a need to be part of the selection process, that Clients need to get a true and honest feedback that the site will reflect their finished product, if not then its not the location for that project. No I do not expect designers to lose jobs but to gain strength and reputation for saying that the site is or is not Fit for Purpose. Then perhaps just too many are now involved in the design process that it is a compromise of ideas by the time you reach the 18th Hole.

Robin & Jeff, I want to see good designs I want to see designers credited for their work but I also believe that courses need to have a spirit or soul, but is you rip the living spirit out of the land as you strip it back you tend to have a soulless place.

We may never agree but at least we have had a honest exchange of views without blows or the odd nasty word.  Again thanks for both your input, very valid and informative.

Melvyn   

Brian Phillips

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2010, 07:41:15 AM »
Melvyn,

This is a very enjoyable and thoughtful thread that I will try to contribute later today.  Thank you.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Adam Lawrence

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Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2010, 07:48:26 AM »
An interesting question is where might the Links Trust have built their seventh course if not out at Kinkell Braes? Could it have gone in the fields between the estuary and the A91, adjoining the end of the Eden course, if the land had been available (I don't know who owns it, but surmise it would be very expensive to buy in such a spot)? But even if that property had been made available and planning consent granted, any course fulfilling the kind of brief that the Castle was meant to match would have required a large-scale construction job - it's flat farmland, presumably with a high water table, and I don't know what the soils are like....
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2010, 08:01:32 AM »

Adam

I believe the water table was once a serious issue, so was the Eden as it more on one occasion nearly engulfed a Green on TOC. However I was under the impression that the water table appertaining to the Eden Estuary was receding and has been doing so for the last 130 years.

As for the 7th course, it should never have been seen as the Hanging Garden of Babylon, it was a poor location

Melvyn


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