NGLA

[Jeff Taylor]

Had the opportunity the play here yesterday. Saved the best for last I suppose. The weather was relentless. The wind was a steady 30 to 40 mph. Never hit so many knockdowns in my life. Two greens were unputtable due to wind. What a great time. The pictures are out of order as we started on # 11. We were a twosome and never waited to hit a shot until there were 2 holes to play.

The entrance.


The Eden.


And again.


Putted this to about 4 feet. Wind blew it back.


Who wants punch?


Steady 45mph at the top of the hill.


Miss hit the wedge on the Alps hole. Left it in the front bunker.


Up and down though.


From the right side of the Redan looking back up the hill.


The short with others in the background.


Some more wind for you.


Road hole bunker. Can't wait to hit this shot down wind.


Breathing a sigh of relief.


The long hole.
]

As big as life.

[Mac Plumart]

It appears you've had a heck of a weekend!!

I hope you had some good company to enjoy those truly world class courses.

Beautiful pictures on all three threads.

Any favorite course, hole, or moment?

[Jeff Taylor]

A couple of things stand out for me. I will list them in no particular order.
1. Playing 3 Redans in 3 days.
2. How difficult a small green with small surroundings can be (Westhampton #1).
3. The white paint all over the clubhouse of Shinnecock.
4. Seeing hints of Merion @ Shinnecock.
5. How the Shinnecock clubhouse dominates the lasdscape. It's very similar to the windmill @ NLGA.
6. How two trips to Scotland and the rest of my golfing life never got me the weather that we had @ the National on our last day. I was just trying to survive out there. Hitting what I consider to be at least 12 excellent shots under those conditions are moments that I will never forget.
7. Seeing features @ NGLA that were spot on with things I had seen in Scotland.
8. Having a 6 foot putt for my 3rd consecutive birdie @ NLGA.

I know there are more memories but it will take time for it to sink in.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

It really is special isn't it.

I think you may have mislabeled the hole you listed as the short in a photo.

I think it's the 10th photo and I think it's another photo of from the 4th green.

I've seen the flags standing at attention, but, when the flagstick is bending, you know you're playing in a gale.
On what holes did you have 3 birdies in a row ?
That's exciting.

While the wind you played in appears to be fierce, the course remains very playable.

Glad you had a great time and thanks for the photos

[Jeff Taylor]

Good catch Pat. I have corrected the image links. I shot over 250 imgaes. Those were edited down to 134 that will be put on DVD for the two friends that I played with. From there, 74 imges were posted to my photography website so that I could link to some of them here. What a chore (8 hours today).

I missed the putt on 8 for what would have been my 3rd in a row. The short was playing at a cross wind of 30mph (6 feet). The Road Hole was downwind and I got up and down by pitching directly over the bunker (tap in). I did hit it close on 8 but woe is me. Can't stand prosperity.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

# 6, # 8 and # 18 are my favorite par 3, par 4 and par 5 on the same golf course.

Evidently you played # 8 downwind.

While that helps on the drive, sometimes it can be a curse on the approach.

Glad you enjoyed your day.

[Bill_McBride]

Jeff, could you give us a few examples NGLA features you've seen in Scotland? 

Loved my day there but glad I didn't have to deal with that wind!

[Jeff Taylor]

The inspiration for the holes at the National come from across the pond. I hate to use the word "tribute".  Maybe someone else can find the right word. Suffice to say that many of the features of the greatest holes in the world are on display @ NLGA (check out The Old Course 11&17). Combine that with firm and fast conditions and a strong wind and you feel like you have left the country.

[Neil_Crafter]

Nice pics Jeff.
Not to be picky, but you might want to correct the thread title, should be NGLA not NLGA 

[Ronald Montesano]

Not to be picky

Picky, picky, picky...National Links Golf of America lives on!

[Jim Nugent]

Saved the best for last I suppose.

Is this how you see it?  NGLA at the top?  Maybe splitting hairs, but can you tell us more about your preferences among the three courses? 

[Anthony Gray]

Jeff,

# 6, # 8 and # 18 are my favorite par 3, par 4 and par 5 on the same golf course.

Evidently you played # 8 downwind.

While that helps on the drive, sometimes it can be a curse on the approach.

Glad you enjoyed your day.

  Pat......Why do you like 18 so much?

 Anthony

[Jeff Taylor]

Neil, thanks for the proof reading. I was a bit worn out yesterday. Many corrections were made.

Jim, yes that is how I see it. Given the course, setting, conditioning, and wow factor, National wins by a nose. Also, I really enjoyed playing holes that had the overt charactistics of links golf courses.  I especially liked the fact that fairway lines were much more varied at the National. Shinnecock and Westhampton had more straight lined fairways (conventional, I guess). As far as opening holes go, The National had the strongest opening. Funny how Westhampton had a similar start. They were both around 300 yards and the greens were small and undulated. That comparison is a rough one because the 1st green at NGLA was incredibly difficult. Short club or not, you can really be in a bad spot and still be on the green. It was trecherous.
At some point I will consider how the topography was used at Shinnecock vs. the National, but it will take a review of the yardage books to put some substance to those thoughts.

[Bill_McBride]

The inspiration for the holes at the National come from across the pond. I hate to use the word "tribute".  Maybe someone else can find the right word. Suffice to say that many of the features of the greatest holes in the world are on display @ NLGA (check out The Old Course 11&17). Combine that with firm and fast conditions and a strong wind and you feel like you have left the country.

I thought #13 at NGLA was probably the worst "Eden" of the dozen I've played in the US.  Not enough tilt in either direction, bunkers out of place. #7 is certainly a good Road Hole but there's not much advantage to cutting the corner, right?

It's really hard to capture what makes the Old Course what it is. 

[Jeff Taylor]

I get your point Bill. The Eden green was relatively flat compared to it's Scottish inspiration. And yes, the bunkers were a bit out of place. I have not played many Eden holes. Regarding #7, making it a par 5 really takes the pressure off the 2nd shot. Pitching over the bunker is also easier when you have a stroke to burn.

[Jeff Taylor]

One more shot.

[JC Jones]

4. Seeing hints of Merion @ Shinnecock.

Can you elaborate?  I played Merion in the same 30 mph wind on Saturday that must have been on Long Island on Sunday.  I'm curious to know what hints or features you may have seen at Shinny that would remind you of Merion, and why.

[Jim Nugent]

I thought #13 at NGLA was probably the worst "Eden" of the dozen I've played in the US.  Not enough tilt in either direction, bunkers out of place.

Does the land not lend itself to a green with more movement, or better bunker placement?   

[Patrick_Mucci]

I get your point Bill. The Eden green was relatively flat compared to it's Scottish inspiration. And yes, the bunkers were a bit out of place. I have not played many Eden holes. Regarding #7, making it a par 5 really takes the pressure off the 2nd shot. Pitching over the bunker is also easier when you have a stroke to burn.  

Jeff and Bill,

Converting # 7 to a par 5 does nothing to protect the architectural integrity of the hole, especially the bunker complex representing the hotel/shed.  The key is to extend the tee back, even across the access road to the maintainance area, thus bringing the bunker complex back into play and making the hole a spectacular par 5.

I don't think you can look at the 13th green at NGLA solely in the context of playing # 11 at TOC.
I think you have to also look at it in the context of playing # 7 at TOC... from the left rear of # 12 green.

The 13th green is sloped steeper as you go toward the back of the green.
The 13th at NGLA accomodates very high green speeds, if if was sloped steeper, you couldn't hold the ball on the green at the higher speeds.

[Jeff Taylor]

For JC,
Shinnecock has similar angles from the tee as Merion. You have an encroaching bunker that must be cleared in order to get the preferred line. The fairway cut line is rather straight and moves towards the green in that fashion. The doglegs at Shinnecock and the Homestead for that matter share this characteristic. Of couse I do understand that this is fairly common in golf course architecture but the visuals reminded me of Merion.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

4. Seeing hints of Merion @ Shinnecock.

Can you elaborate?  I played Merion in the same 30 mph wind on Saturday that must have been on Long Island on Sunday.  I'm curious to know what hints or features you may have seen at Shinny that would remind you of Merion, and why.

These tee shots struck me as pretty similar...

[Bill_McBride]

I get your point Bill. The Eden green was relatively flat compared to it's Scottish inspiration. And yes, the bunkers were a bit out of place. I have not played many Eden holes. Regarding #7, making it a par 5 really takes the pressure off the 2nd shot. Pitching over the bunker is also easier when you have a stroke to burn.  

Jeff and Bill,

Converting # 7 to a par 5 does nothing to protect the architectural integrity of the hole, especially the bunker complex representing the hotel/shed.  The key is to extend the tee back, even across the access road to the maintainance area, thus bringing the bunker complex back into play and making the hole a spectacular par 5.

I don't think you can look at the 13th green at NGLA solely in the context of playing # 11 at TOC.
I think you have to also look at it in the context of playing # 7 at TOC... from the left rear of # 12 green.

The 13th green is sloped steeper as you go toward the back of the green.
The 13th at NGLA accomodates very high green speeds, if if was sloped steeper, you couldn't hold the ball on the green at the higher speeds.

I played the Reverse Old Course several years ago, and the hardest hole was played from the 13th tee to the 11th pin, right over Hill Bunker, into a fierce wind.  It was brutal.  The shot onto the green was played into the steep slope from Hill Bunker down toward the normal 7th pin.

What makes the Eden hole so fascinating at the Old Course is the very steep compound slopes, both back to front and left to right.  It's difficult to find the right area of the green and then to putt well because of these slopes.  The green is very fast because the slopes are so steep.

Macdonald chose to design a much flatter green at NGLA, which is why I found it be a benign Eden like most USA models.  You aren't really saying that CBM flattened the green because he envisioned modern 12 stimps, are you?  

[Jim Nugent]

Macdonald chose to design a much flatter green at NGLA, which is why I found it be a benign Eden like most USA models.  You aren't really saying that CBM flattened the green because he envisioned modern 12 stimps, are you? 

Could he have made the slope(s) steeper, if he chose?  And if so, why didn't he? 

[Bill_McBride]

Macdonald chose to design a much flatter green at NGLA, which is why I found it be a benign Eden like most USA models.  You aren't really saying that CBM flattened the green because he envisioned modern 12 stimps, are you?  

Could he have made the slope(s) steeper, if he chose?  And if so, why didn't he?  

I have no idea.  Pat seems to think it was because Macdonald planned for faster greens in the future.

[Jim Nugent]

Macdonald chose to design a much flatter green at NGLA, which is why I found it be a benign Eden like most USA models.  You aren't really saying that CBM flattened the green because he envisioned modern 12 stimps, are you?  

Could he have made the slope(s) steeper, if he chose?  And if so, why didn't he?  

I have no idea.  Pat seems to think it was because Macdonald planned for faster greens in the future.

CBM truly was a visionary.