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Chris Cupit

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Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« on: October 15, 2010, 08:04:29 PM »
I just purchased and have been reading James Keegan's "The Business of Golf" and he has some very interesting data.  One table from a NGF study in 2000, asked why do golfers choose one course over another?  The answers back then were:

Conditioning                          75%
Price                                    71%
Pace of Play                          64%
Challenging Layout                 64%
Tee Time Availability               59%
Location                               59%
Customer Service                   51%
Golf Shop Quality                   25%
Name of Designer of Course    19%

Is this similar to your feelings and does anyone think that things have changed much in a decade?  I'd love to hear some feedback :)

Brian Laurent

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2010, 08:17:34 PM »
The feedback from this group will likely not reflect the thoughts of the average golfer.  These days, price may have trumped conditioning, but those two are probably still at the top of the list.   
"You know the two easiest jobs in the world? College basketball coach or golf course superintendent, because everybody knows how to do your job better than you do." - Roy Williams | @brianjlaurent | @OHSuperNetwork

Peter Pallotta

Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2010, 08:30:19 PM »
Chris - I think that's just about right. I'd suggest that, while conditioning is to a certain extent relative (i.e. expectations are related to price, such that golfers will accept 'less' conditioning if the price is 'right'), I think this is becoming less true every day.  I think more and more golfers have come to expect better and better conditioning at whatever the price (i.e. no matter how low). 

But I know a bit about your situation as an owner of a quality course with a good membership, and I'd be curious: a) what's the 'scale' that you find amongst your members, and b) how influenced are you by their feedback and/or the feedback of polls like the one you posted?

Peter

 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 08:49:42 PM by PPallotta »

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2010, 08:44:59 PM »
I can tell you that outside (guest) play and member play increased significantly after course conditioning improved with a new super 3 years ago.

Sean_A

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2010, 09:20:40 PM »
For visiting golfers (I think those looking at membership probably look at things a bit differently) in the UK I think price, location and I spose availability (though I would think availability is always a high priority - no?) are the biggest factors.  Conditioning, layout and likely service are the next most important group.  Probably pace of play after that with pro shop and designer off the radar.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tim Bert

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2010, 11:52:23 PM »
While this is probably directionally correct, one of the frequent problems with surveys are not the responses but rather the questions. Some of the categories are a bit broad and may not define the responses well. For instance our #1 reason, conditioning, could mean very different things to different people. I'd agree it is extremely important to me, but what I value is firm and fast conditions. Probably very different than many of the people that responded to the survey. So, yes, broadly conditioning is important but is there anything that can really be done with that information without more specifics?

Another thing I question is if this was an open-ended question and the answers were simply categorized or if there were options for the respondents to choose. For instance, quality of golf holes and interesting layout are much more important to me than a challenging layout. I'd imagine that this would be true for the majority of golfers since just about any course is going to be a challenge for all but the strong players. Now, those choices aren't there. Is it because they scored so low that they didn't show up or because they weren't presented as options. I just don't buy that challenge is that high for most golfers but if they only option I see that represents anything related to the layout it challenge I might select it for lack of any better choice.


Chris Cupit

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2010, 12:10:49 AM »
Peter,
My decision to change my course in 2006 was as much a gut instinct as anything. My market was dominated by more expensive private clubs that quite frankly had a "sameness" to them.  I chose to do something different because I didn't feel I could compete by imitating what everyone else had--pretty white edged bunkers, boring two tiered greens that needed to stomp at 11 to have any interest and acres and acres of groomed Bermuda and raked pine straw beds.  I could not afford that even if I could build it.

We had little debt so I felt we could crate something unique that may alienate some but would hopefully attract more than enough people to be viable.  Combined with a dues structure 25-35% lower than my neighbors and the combination of interesting golf and price could create value that golfers wanted.  We also emphasized a nice social environment but have a tiny pool and tennis presence. I actually sold off my swim and tennis to a developer but part of the deal required him to build two courts and a pool that he would own, operate and maintain but my members would forever have access to those amenities at no extra cost to me or them.

Anyway we have hung in for 38 years now and since 2006 we are still chugging along. Our course is in excellent condition and does have a mini "cult" following I guess. We also have a pace of play policy that our membership has bought into. Any group teeing off prior to 10:00 am on the weekends must finish in 4:10 or they have to tee off later the next weekend. I wish I could say I intentionally tried to have conditioning, price and pace as my goals but I don't remember even seeing this survey back in 2000!  He'll, even if I saw this and believed it, I am not sure I could have intentionally developed a plan to achieve all three!!

I also think there are countless factoids like this that operators can reference or tweak to confirm their hunches anyway. Human nature to look for facts that confirm your own prejudices and I am as human as they come :). I did find the information interesting and a alrge part of me hopes that it is true.  I was surprised location was as relatively low on the list as it was and while I am not surprised that name architect is low (since few except for the guys on this site have a clue about any course architects) I was surprised that the percentage was so low for a famous designer.  I would have thought John q. Public would have been interested in a Jack Nicklaus , Arnold Palmer or Pete Dye course.

I think my prospective member is looking at overall value--price, quality, convenience.  Without a good product there isn't value at any price no matter how cheap.  Without a decent price people simply cannot continue to justify the time and expense and without a good location if it is too much of a hassle to get to your course, you end up bagging it and then quit because you never use it.  

The main reason I am making it is that we have managed to have little debt and even after our renovation in 2006 we kept debt low and have been able to keep our prices among the lowest in town.  We have never had an assessment as well which is one thing that drove many of our competitors members to us after they faced year after year of operational and capital calls.  Lastly, I truly felt that a great club was possible based on bunch of good people a quality course in good shape and an atmosphere that let's people hang out comfortably. Also, we have an old clubhouse that is functional but we avoided going bankrupt by NOT building a 40,000 sq. Ft. monstrosity.  I know I lose some people because they want a fancier clubhouse and bigger pool and tennis area but I am thankful I didn't go that direction.  As bad as times are for the industry I still think golf is financially viable and it is the ancillary items that are such a drain.

Lastly, I wonder if the list has more daily fee versus private club application?  
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 09:58:05 AM by Chris Cupit »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2010, 01:38:15 AM »

Lastly, I wonder if the list has more daily fee versus private club application?  


I look for different things in a public/resort course than a private club I want to join.  To be honest the setting is important for me at a public/resort course.   If I have a choice between course A in Denver and course B in the mountains and the quality of the courses is similar, I go to the mountains. 

If I am going to join a club the quality of the course is paramount.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Thomas McQuillan

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2010, 06:37:58 AM »
What about the reputation of a course? Isnt that the most important factor?

Steve Kline

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2010, 06:39:32 AM »
Chris - if there was a place like yours in Cincinnati I would join in a second. Unfortunately there aren't any options like that here.

I would think the survey is pretty accurate. Of course on this site design features would rank much higher.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2010, 07:12:23 AM »
Chris,
The survey looks about right to me; I wouldn't think that much has changed since 2000.  If anything, the top two might be flipped now, but that would be quibbling.

I left Alpharetta Athletic Club 14 months ago after 15 yrs. and moved my membership to Crystal Falls.  I moved because of price first and conditioning second.  In my particular case, customer service was a big, big part of the equation, but that was a very unusual set of circumstances, I would suspect.

But I'm a great example of the location piece of the survey; I left a club 10 minutes from my house for one 30 minutes away and have never thought twice about the distance since.  It may be that location is less important in the modern golf world because we don't use golf clubs as country clubs as much; we don't go there for reasons other than golf very frequently.  Since the golf itself is going to occupy 4-5 hrs. when you include warmup, settling up, etc., a marginally longer drive is less important than it would be otherwise.

"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Brad Isaacs

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2010, 08:08:47 AM »
I think that there are two different concepts going on in this line. There is the basic mechanics of golf course business. This what I have seen mostly discussed. Hard to argue with the common sense aspects of what people have written.

The other part is the personality aspect of golf course design and why people like different golf courses. Some like it penal, some strategic, etc. This comes into play greatly when one chooses what golf course they want to play.  One such example is an often heard comment about the Monterey Peninsula. "love the beauty of Pebble but give me Spyglass to play". ( I like the Shore better) ;)

Carl Rogers

Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2010, 08:29:41 AM »
I am a little surprised that location was only at 59%, given the time problem of the game.  In the middle of the summer with long days a reasonable practice facility and the ability to walk a few holes before dark would and is a real draw for me.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2010, 09:31:19 AM »
I joined my local club because my friends were members there. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2010, 09:37:54 AM »
I joined my local club because my friends were members there. 
Mac - I think overall it was a good survey but as someone said it depends how the questions are loaded. I agree that there is a big influence on where your friends play. I also think from 2000- to NOW 2010 that price is a bigger dictator athough I think VALUE FOR MONEY which is kinda aggregated over everything is always the key to any business at almost any time.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Steve Lang

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2010, 10:04:03 AM »
 8) Chris,

When we play away from the WCC at publics, its for something with different setting, shots to be made and logistics. 

It looks like maybe three types of golfers in those stats you found

Connoisseurs/deal shoppers that appreciate these values 
Conditioning                          75%
Price                                    71%

Pragmatic/Competitive Types in life and play
Pace of Play                          64%
Challenging Layout                 64%
Tee Time Availability               59%
Location                               59%
Customer Service                   51%

Are these the "Retail Golfers"
Golf Shop Quality                   25%
Name of Designer of Course    19%


When i played with old buds back in ohio it was mostly logistics and something "fun" for day or weekend outings.. we used to hunt out the hidden gems in each county, and with 88 counties and about 5 hours needed to traverse the state, well, plenty of adventure was had, but it always came back to logistics, what venues could we get in and then accomodations.. when travelling more afar like to NC, SC, TN, KY over time we went from motels and eating at "John's BBQ", to condos and cooking our own meals

back to WCC, we chose because of overall value, and 19 years later still enjoy, with all the changes that have occurred .. but now, if we were coming in fresh, we'd probably reconsider that choice, as high initiation fees could buy a lot of golf.. we'd probably go for the multi-course membership deals about..
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2010, 10:04:15 AM »
I think that there are two different concepts going on in this line. There is the basic mechanics of golf course business. This what I have seen mostly discussed. Hard to argue with the common sense aspects of what people have written.

The other part is the personality aspect of golf course design and why people like different golf courses. Some like it penal, some strategic, etc. This comes into play greatly when one chooses what golf course they want to play.  One such example is an often heard comment about the Monterey Peninsula. "love the beauty of Pebble but give me Spyglass to play". ( I like the Shore better) ;)

Brad,
Your second paragraph is true of the people on this board.  We are, however, a VERY small subset of the golfing population, and the fact is that most golfers, even very good ones couldn't tell you the difference between penal and strategic GCA if their life depended on it.  They might know what they like in a golf course, and it MIGHT play into where they join, but it is way, way down the list.  And at that, what they like is usually glitz and eye candy rather than solid GCA.  

Try talking to other players about the stuff that is discussed here.  You will never see eyes glaze over any quicker...
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Chris Cupit

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2010, 10:22:14 AM »
Very interesting posts and thank you all.  This book has been an eye opener in many respects as I have been guilty at times of being the golf "snob" and have forgotten that golf is still driven by the "average Joe and Jo" who just want a fun day away from the office or any of life's other headaches.  He/She want a fun time, a few beers and some laughs.  

I stumbled into a bit of that with my private club and I am very fortunate for that.  Two other factoids that I found interesting were:
1.  85% of all golfers have no handicap and 70% of golfers drink alcohol while playing 2. Since 1950 the percentage of private clubs has fallen from 62% to 27% :o

Traditionalists (like me) may not want to hear it but people play golf NOT for competition, architecture or individual attainment of goals--it's about being entertained--escapism and entertainment.  The author even compared golf courses to theme parks :(  

I do not agree to that degree and I still feel good golf (defined by me as interesting course in consistently solid condition) in a more relaxed environment than what golf has traditionally given people is the key to financial success.    
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 10:47:50 AM by Chris Cupit »

Mac Plumart

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2010, 11:03:10 AM »
Chris...

Take this for the 2 cents it is worth, but I simply have to say something.

You are doing everything correctly regarding your golf course.  The layout and routing is very good.  The greens are quite simply world class.  Your passion for good golf and good golf architecture will continue to elevate that course in the eyes of many...all it will take is time.

We, here at GCA, will appreciate the course right away.  We know when we see the redan, we will appreciate the contours of the greens, the great options regarding an aerial attack or bump and run, and the excellent transitions from hole to hole.

The average Joe golfer might not get why they like your course right away, but they will be compelled to play it again and again...and perhaps they will never know why.  I find that is the mystery aspect of good architecture.  Sometimes you can't put your finger on why you are drawn to a course...you just are.

Regarding the 'escapism' aspect of why people like golf...I agree 100%.  I LOVE wallking and playing after a stressful week of work and life.  Frankly, I think that is the #1 reason why I like golf.  To take 4 hours and get away from it all. 

2 cents...sorry I couldn't help myself as your course is the coolest affordable neighborhood course/club I've seen. 

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2010, 02:24:02 PM »
Very interesting posts and thank you all.  This book has been an eye opener in many respects as I have been guilty at times of being the golf "snob" and have forgotten that golf is still driven by the "average Joe and Jo" who just want a fun day away from the office or any of life's other headaches.  He/She want a fun time, a few beers and some laughs.  

I stumbled into a bit of that with my private club and I am very fortunate for that.  Two other factoids that I found interesting were:
1.  85% of all golfers have no handicap and 70% of golfers drink alcohol while playing 2. Since 1950 the percentage of private clubs has fallen from 62% to 27% :o

Traditionalists (like me) may not want to hear it but people play golf NOT for competition, architecture or individual attainment of goals--it's about being entertained--escapism and entertainment.  The author even compared golf courses to theme parks :(  

I do not agree to that degree and I still feel good golf (defined by me as interesting course in consistently solid condition) in a more relaxed environment than what golf has traditionally given people is the key to financial success.    
Chris - Happiness for you as the owner is the most important. You might make more money via a sightly different route, that might be to compromise the quality though. As long as you are making money do it your way 100%, If you are gearing up for a sale you might want to tweak a few things, some golf course owners are pure accountants. I could never own a crap golf course, it has to be to certain standard to enjoy it sounds as if you feel the same.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jay Cox

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2010, 03:48:22 PM »
In the 2000 study, were the options listed in Chris's post the only choices people were given?

If so, none of them are about how interesting a course is to play.  There is "challenging layout," and conditioning, and a bunch of considerations that aren't directly about the golf course at all. 

Of the factors listed, I suppose either pace of play or location is the most important to me -- because I don't care too much about conditioning, and I don't care at all how challenging a layout is as long as I have fun playing it.  But both of those factors are considerably less important to me than how interesting the course is.

Now, are there many other people with the same view?  I'm not sure.  But I would be curious to see what percentage would have chosen an "interesting layout" or "fun layout" option.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2010, 04:40:03 PM »
Jay I think the problem you have when you ask the question... Is it a Fun Course?.... Everyones definition of fun is different, lots of people find water fun, others may not. Probaby the same with ... Is the golf course interesting?... Its a bit vague to answer really because good or bad courses in the eye of the beholder could still be interesting. I think probably most golf courses are fun and most are interesting, but its the fine print that seperates.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Chris Cupit

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Re: Slightly OT-Why do golfers choose one course over another?
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2010, 04:50:37 PM »
Mac,

Thanks, I appreciate the comments.

Jay,

Here is how the factoid was presented:

"In 2000, the NGF published a survey asking, "What is the primary reason you choose one course over another?"  The results were as follows:...

From that I would assume it was an open ended question where the answer could be anything and the NGF had a person funneling the answers into some pre-determined and/or added categories based on what was said and what they thought was going to be said. 

For example if someone said "conditioning", another guy said "good greens" and a third said "I'm not plying a goat ranch!" then those three went into a catch all category of conditioning.  Of course, this is my guess as I do not know what the methodology was.

A category that I thought would be there would be "my friends play there" or "habit".