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Jerry Kluger

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Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2008, 09:00:01 AM »
Rick:  My job includes supervising 30 trial lawyers and I review many of their pleadings and it amazes me how many typos I find.  More particularly, they use spellcheck and forget about proofreading.  In "The Match" I can remember where it says a player put his clubs in the "truck" of his car instead of the trunk of his car.  It just wastes so much of my tyme. (Typo intended).

JSlonis

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Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2008, 01:19:45 PM »
Jamie:

Could you tell us a little more about Harvie Ward----what he was like, what he talked about, his swing etc?

Tom,

I got to know "Ole Harv" during my last two years of college and kept in touch with him on occasion after that.  Pinehurst was about a 45 minute drive from school.  At the time, Harvie was giving lessons at Pine Needles.  Bill McGuinness who knew Harvie very well suggested that I contact him about getting some help with my game.  It probably wasn't a good thing for my swing, but I was nervous as hell before my first lesson with him.  I knew he'd forgotten about more great shots than I ever hit, so it was a bit intimidating.  All those nerves went away quickly because...

From the first moment I met Harvie, it seemed like I had know him forever.  He was such a warm and magnetic personality, it was impossible not to like him.  He was a great storyteller, and God knows he had plenty of memorable stories to tell.  As a player, a teacher and a character, Harvie never failed to live up to his reputation.  He talked about the "Match" with me, but not to any great extent.  It seemed to me that from Harvie's perspective, the story and legend about it grew more over time and at the time of its actual playing, it was just one helluva match played by some of the greats in the game.

Harvie was very set in his ways about how one should go about playing good golf.  He stressed rhythm, tempo and 3 main clubs, the driver, the wedge and the putter.  He used to always say in his Carolina twang, "Keep the driver in play, cause' those irons ain't worth a damn if you can't get the big dog in play."  He always talked about the importance of driving it straight and the need for a good player to eliminate one side of the golf course.  For him, that meant eliminating the left side, and that the "fade" was the proper way to hit the ball.  He liked to see the ball falling to the right for the majority of shots.  He also preached the importance of the shortgame.  Especially in match play, he thought a great short game could just frustrate the hell out of his opponent when he wasn't striking it his best.  Even though he was great, great ballstriker, I remember him saying that he won more matches because of his short game.  To use a Harvie-ism, he'd say about an opponent, "I'd get er' up and down from nowhere, and I'd just steal their lunch."  I remember reading a quote somewhere from Harvie about a match in which he beat Nicklaus...something to the same extent of what I wrote above.  He liked that "stealing his lunch" comment.

Luckily after a few lessons with him, I had a chance to go play 9 holes at Pine Needles with him a couple times.  Harvie's golf swing was just so rythmic and natural, it seemed like he could never hit a bad shot...and he rarely did.  I think he shot even or a couple under par every time we played, and he was in his mid 60's at that point.  Harvie had an effortless grace about him, both on and off the golf course.

I have Harvie to thank for one of the greatest days in my life.  In 1990, Harvie invited me to spend the Wednesday practice round day of the Masters with him.  In those days, you could just walk up and get a ticket for the day.  I was to meet him at the back of the practice range early in the morning.  When I arrived, I found him with no problem, he told the range attendant to let me under the ropes out onto the range.  Much to my amazement, he said when I greeted him, "Jamie my boy, I'd like you to meet a couple of guys you might have heard of a time or two."  Harvie was holding court and standing with Byron Nelson and Sam Snead.  Needless to say, as a 21 year old, I was blown away.  At that time, Harvie was helping Payne Stewart with his game.  Payne Stewart was my favorite player at that time, so it was even more special. We got to go out on the course and watch Payne play nine holes before he got ready for the Par 3 contest.  One of the neatest things that day was that during the practice round, Payne had regular golf pants and a baseball hat on.  A lot of people in the gallery had no clue who he was because of his normal dress.  They sure knew him after he changed for the Par 3 tourney though.  Payne arrived out of the locker room dressed to the nines.  Black Knickers, White long sleeve formal shirt, Black bowtie, Black flat cap and white and black shoes with gold metal tips.  He knew how to put on a show.

As I said in my earlier post, as the years go by, the more I realize how lucky I was to have known Harvie, even for a short while.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 03:37:50 PM by JSlonis »

Peter Pallotta

Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2008, 01:57:40 PM »
Jamie - thanks very much for that; wonderful stuff.  I'm glad you got a chance to spend time with him.

One of the many interesting things about your post was how Mr. Ward remembers the match, i.e. that he was surprised to see how the story and legend grew. And I think: of course -- he was too busy doing it and then moving on to the next 'match' to think much more about it; it's the rest of us who want write and read about it. 

It reminds me of reading an essay about one of clarinettists Pee Wee Russell's best record-dates, with trumpeter Buck Clayton. They really produced wonderful music that day, and so I read the essay with great interest. But then in Buck's autobiography, he only makes the briefest mention of that day, and do you know what he remembers? That they recorded in a then-isolated studio in New Jersey, and had forgotten to bring anything to drink! He remembers how grateful he and Pee Wee were when someone finally showed up with a bottle of warm beer.

Anyway,  thanks again

Peter

Bob H - thanks much. I was catching up on this thread moving backwards, and just got to your post. I think I should make  "Bob, hit he f***ing thing over the green" my tag-line...or even a motto for life!!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 02:09:15 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Bruce Leland

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Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2008, 10:34:09 AM »
Here's an interesting read on Harvie by Jim Dodson who authored  "Ben Hogan, An American Life" and was researching a book on Harvie at the time of his death. 

http://archives.thepilot.com/July2006/20060722/news/local/072306Dodson.html 


"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Mike Demetriou

Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2008, 11:28:21 AM »
Bruce, thank you for posting that. What a great piece.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2008, 10:22:06 AM »
I heard a great Harvie story this past weekend that I had forgot about. I figured you guys would enjoy it.  It's short but sweet.

Apparently in his later years, Harvie played a fair amount of golf at Forest Creek in Pinehurst.  Harvie was about 74 years old at the time.  The story goes:

Harvie strolled into the clubhouse after his round and one of the members spotted him and said to Harvie, "How'd it go out there?  Harvie replied, "OK thanks."  The fella followed up with another question, "Well...did you shoot your age?"  In classic Harvie fashion, he responded, "What? Shoot my age?...HELL, I DIDN'T PLAY THAT BAD."

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2010, 08:14:41 PM »

With all the talk about The Match' and the veracity of the author, I do think that to place faith in his telling of the tale is hazardous to one's wallet

Here are a couple of observations from 2008 .

Bob





Between watching the Olympics and the PGA Championship I re-read Mark Frost's  'The Match."

I must say that it was a jolly good read but I closed the covers thinking that he is one sloppy writer.

Some the the irritants to me were his description of Hogan looking like a middleweight at 145lbs...when 160lbs was the limit for that particular class. He claims that Hogan holds the course record at Cypress, with a 63. If he thinks that conceded putts in a match play event constitutes a record, then his golfing knowledge is sadly lacking.

On page 31 he writes "that Coleman never owned his own mansion in Monterey but rented a New England Style cottage in the hills above Pebble Beach." I wrote to George Coleman's daughter in Venice and her letter below disputes that and also that Hogan did not stay with Crosby.

"Hello Bob,
 
No, we owned a house on the corner next to the Lodge. It is the  Cottage
which is for sale now. Mother and Daddy rented before the war, but after  the war
they bought the house and never rented again They always rented the old  Morse
house which isn't there any more. Not everything in the book is right.  Hogan
never stayed with Crosby. I can't say the house they  bought was  a mansion.
They kept building on.
 
All the best to you and your wife,
 
Sarah"

Back in 1970/71 I was invited to play in a fourball match at Cypress by Jack Westland. He would partner Art Bell and I would play with Harvie Ward. Harvie teased Bell by never conceding him a putt and causing him untold anguish as by that time Bell was an awful putter. We won the match and had a drink afterward and Ward  mentioned the match with no great appreciation that it had changed the game forever. He was still using the same rusty old putter and said " I may change wives but never this."

He was as good as I have seen.

Bob


Bob:
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story ;) ;D.  Frost's books are entertaining but some times the facts get in his way ;D ;D ;D
Best
Dave

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2010, 08:26:22 PM »
Gentlemen,

I am sorry I goofed, I thought I was quoting just one message, not a whole thread and not realizing I was highjacking the existing discussion.

Mea culpa.

Bob

Patrick_Mucci

Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2010, 11:06:44 PM »
Dan King and Bob Huntley,

Could you cite for us, any and all errors concerning the GOLF played on January 11, 1956.

Stating that Frost got some things wrong doesn't mean he didn't get other things right.

I'd like to know, what he wrote about the golf that was played that day, that's incorrect.

Thanks

Dan King

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Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2010, 12:41:48 AM »
Patrick_Mucci wrote:
Dan King and Bob Huntley,

Could you cite for us, any and all errors concerning the GOLF played on January 11, 1956.

Stating that Frost got some things wrong doesn't mean he didn't get other things right.

I'd like to know, what he wrote about the golf that was played that day, that's incorrect.

Thanks


Like I wrote in the other thread, I have no idea having never read The Match.

I know Frost from his other book will make stuff up if it helps his narrative. He is also sloppy with his facts, getting things wrong that could easily be right if he did halfway decent research. There was a discussion about his other book where numerous factual mistakes were in his book.

It is possible Frost ignored his money-making historical fiction style and decided to research and be less sloppy. I don't believe that is the case. Do you have any reason to believe The Match is more accurate than The Greatest Game Ever Played?

I remember in the earlier thread the pro-Frost side was arguing that he took license with history but that was okay because he made it a fun read. But this is the danger in historical fiction that isn't marked as such. People in the future -- such as you in the other thread -- will assume it is historical and site Frost's work as historical.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
History to be above evasion must stand on documents not on opinion.
 --Lord Acton

Melvyn Morrow

Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2010, 08:37:29 AM »

Perhaps not Breakfast But What Henry VIII like to eat

1. Spit-Roasted Meat

Spit-roasted meat -- usually a pig or boar -- was eaten at every meal. It was an expression of extreme wealth because only the rich could afford fresh meat year-round; only the very rich could afford to roast it, since this required much more fuel than boiling; and only the super wealthy could pay a "spit boy" to turn the spit all day. In a typical year, the royal kitchen served 1,240 oxen, 8,200 sheep, 2,330 deer, 760 calves, 1,870 pigs, and 53 wild boar. That's more than 14,000 large animals, meaning each member of the court was consuming about 23 animals every year.
2. Grilled Beavers' Tails

These tasty morsels were particularly popular on Fridays, when according to Christian tradition, it was forbidden to eat meat. Rather conveniently, medieval people classified beavers as fish.
3. Whale Meat

Another popular dish for Fridays, whale meat was fairly common and cheap, due to the plentiful supply of whales in the North Sea, each of which could feed hundreds of people. It was typically served boiled or very well roasted.
4. Whole Roasted Peacock

This delicacy was served dressed in its own iridescent blue feathers (which were plucked, then replaced after the bird had been cooked), with its beak gilded in gold leaf.
5. Internal Organs

If you're squeamish, stop reading now. Medieval cooks didn't believe in wasting any part of an animal, and in fact, internal organs were often regarded as delicacies. Beef lungs, spleen, and even udders were considered fit for a king and were usually preserved in brine or vinegar.
6. Black Pudding

Another popular dish -- still served in parts of England -- was black pudding. This sausage is made by filling a length of pig's intestine with the animal's boiled, congealed blood.
7. Boar's Head

A boar's head, garnished with bay and rosemary, served as the centerpiece of Christmas feasts. It certainly outdoes a floral display.
8. Roasted Swan

Roasted swan was another treat reserved for special occasions, largely because swans were regarded as too noble and dignified for everyday consumption. The bird was often presented to the table with a gold crown upon its head. To this day, English law stipulates that all mute swans are owned by the Crown and may not be eaten without permission from the Queen.
9. Vegetables

Perhaps the only type of food Henry and his court didn't consume to excess was vegetables, which were viewed as the food of the poor and made up less than 20 percent of the royal diet.

10. Marzipan

A paste made from ground almonds, sugar, and egg whites and flavored with cinnamon and pepper, marzipan was occasionally served at the end of a meal, although desserts weren't common in England until the 18th century when incredibly elaborate sugar sculptures became popular among the aristocracy.

11. Spiced Fruitcake

The exception to the no dessert rule was during the Twelfth Night banquet on January 6, when a special spiced fruitcake containing a dried pea (or bean) was served. Whoever found the pea would be king or queen of the pea (or bean) and was treated as a guest of honor for the remainder of the evening.

12. Wine and Ale

All this food was washed down with enormous quantities of wine and ale. Historians estimate that 600,000 gallons of ale (enough to fill an Olympic-size swimming pool) and around 75,000 gallons of wine (enough to fill 1,500 bathtubs) were drunk every year at Hampton Court Palace.


Everything!!!!
it was pancakes and caviar
his favourite foods were typically very sweet and two of his favourites were thinly sliced apples dipped in cinnamon and his favourite was apricots. funny but true

Enjoy

Melvyn


Tony_Muldoon

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Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2010, 10:47:31 AM »
Great thread thanks guys.

Mark Frost what a dude.  I just loved Hill St Blues and Twin Peaks was the real deal, genuinely innovative.  I enjoyed TGGEP and The Match but couldn’t get into the Bobby Jones one.  I’d love to play golf with him.

He’s a very skilled dramatist and fiction writer.  Only Pat thinks he’s an historian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Frost 
Let's make GCA grate again!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2010, 07:56:45 PM »
Tony Muldoon,

When you have independent confirmation of a specific event by three parties, I'd say that tends to establish the event as factual.

I've asked, time and time again, for someone, anyone, to cite where Frost fabricated anything about the golf played that day.

To date, noone has come forth to refute one word of Frost's.
Why not ?

What does that tell you ?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2010, 08:01:08 PM »
Tony Muldoon,

When you have independent confirmation of a specific event by three parties, I'd say that tends to establish the event as factual.

I've asked, time and time again, for someone, anyone, to cite where Frost fabricated anything about the golf played that day.

To date, noone has come forth to refute one word of Frost's.
Why not ?

What does that tell you ?

Pat

It tells you that everybody knows as much about Frost's sources as you do. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dan King

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Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2010, 08:07:50 PM »
Patrick_Mucii writes:
I've asked, time and time again, for someone, anyone, to cite where Frost fabricated anything about the golf played that day.

To date, noone has come forth to refute one word of Frost's.
Why not ?

What does that tell you ?


I can't refute something I never read. I can refute Mr. Frost a historian. I don't have to read every word he ever wrote to refute him as a historian. Did Mr. Frost change his style of research between writing The Greatest Game Ever Played and The Match?  

If I go out and eat a crappy meal I don't have to constantly go back to the same restaurant before deciding the place is crap.

Please read Mr. Huntley's post at the beginning of this thread. He points out a couple things that show Mr. Frost retained his sloppiness. Are you calling Mr. Huntley a liar? :-)

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
By all means screw their women and drink their booze but never write one word about their bloody awful golf course.
  --Henry Longhurst (advise to a fellow journalist being pressed to make a trip to a new expensive golf development)

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Match Revisited"
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2010, 02:26:45 PM »
For those of you who have played Cypress Point in a tournament or an invitational, do any of you remember Sparky Enea? He was the caddy that stood upon the high dune to the right of the eighth hole, if you were in the sand he would wave his flag giving you the bad news.

I do wish he was still alive so that could ask him if he raised his flag that particular day.


Bob