[Jay Flemma]

Hey everyone.  I'm writing a chapter in a book on Lawsonia and wanted to start the discussion (again, I know we love this one) to talk about how affordable/what a great value Lawsonia is, and to talk some more about the terrific bunkering and routing of the course.

Dan Moore did a couple of great threads with Dick Daley and even hosted a get-together back in the day  His history of the course - along with Ran's write-up - are a great jumping off point for newbies and non-GCA golfers to learn about Langford and Moreau.  Some people don't like one, but I love it...the blind drive there and on two are not nuisances, but instead are a fascinating way to start the round.

Do you agree that it's a second shot golf course?  Is 4 really a Redan or just redan-esque?  Is there really a boxcar buried under 7 green?  Such a rich history and a loving restoration should be discovered by every golfer.  Where does the course rank on the list of great public designs?  Chime in here, and Dan Moore, please chime in, the white courtesy phone carried by the uniformed dwarf from the Polo Lounge is ringing for you.  This must be the call you've been waiting for all this time:)

Pix soon.

[Jud_T]

Jay,

It's definitely on a very short list of my favorite public courses, and probably in very rare company in terms of quality/$$.  In fact, the only public course that pops to mind that I clearly prefer is Pac Dunes, and that's 3 times the price and tougher to get to...Yes the approaches are the main interest as it's essentially a decent piece of rolling farmland with fantastic green complexes.  However, you often are significantly better off approaching from the proper side of the fairway, so I wouldn't say you don't have to think at all off the tee.  The only things that were holding it back were it's location and their no-alcohol policy at the 19th hole, which has recently been rectified....

[Andy Shulman]

Jud's the authority on Lawsonia, but I'll weigh in since I just played my first round there last month.  Attacking your specific questions in order:

1.  It's definitely a second shot course, which Ran's review speaks to.  I felt comfortable on every tee box, even #s 1, 2 and 6 where the tee shot is partially blind, although I may have had an advantage since I had not only read Ran's review, but was carrying it with me.
2.  I did not consider #4 a Redan hole.  It seems to be missing some of the essential elements and is also noticeably uphill.
3.  Not sure whats buried under the green at #7, but it's a great hole.
4.  Lawsonia is rightfully in GolfWeek's Top 100 classic courses in the US.  I'd compare it to Lundin Links in Scotland and Taconic in Williamstown, MA as courses with a unique (at least by today's standards) design that strike just the right balance between fun and challenge.

And Jud is right that Lawsonia gets five stars on the value scale.  The only course I've played that seems comparable in that regard is Pacific Grove, not so much for the quality of the design as for the ocean views.

[Brad Swanson]

For a course that has 9 of 13 tee shots of non par three holes with some angle involved (2,3,5,6,9,11,13,15,16) for the better/longer golfer, I think its shortsighted to underestimate the importance of driving the ball well at Lawsonia.

And no way is 4 a redan.  The beard-pullers here could manage to find a redan in their Cheerios in the morning if given enough time.

 

[PCCraig]

I was actually planning on posting a few pictures from a day trip to Lawsonia from this past weekend. Myself and three buddies left Chicago at 4:45am, driving to Green Lake in darkness, only to find the course in near perfect condition, playing two rounds of best ball followed by about 24 holes of alternate shot (for $65), a fish fry dinner at the Goose Blind, and a long drive home!

The course was in very firm and fast condition with the ground being a brown hue, leaves changing, and the greens somewhat quick.

I'll try to post some pictures this weekend when I have a chance.

The more and more I play the course the more I'm falling in love with the place. There are few courses that I can step off my 36th hole of the day and figure out the fastest way to get back on the first tee for more golf.

Back to Jay's topic:

*I like the first hole mostly due to the approach shot and the very neat green, however I think the hole would be a little more interesting as a par-5 as the cross bunker short of the green would clearly effect the hole's strategy more.

*The blind shot on #2 is great and really sets the mood for the rest of the course once to come over the hill and see the huge barn and the green down the hill.

*#4 is a fine hole, but it's not a redan. Even after a half a dozen or more playings I still manage to take too little club and am starting to notice how uphill the tee shot really is.

*#6 is still an all-world par 4.

*On a list of public access golf courses, it's very very high in my book. Made even more so because of the extreme value found there. I would argue that it's even slightly underrated in the GW list and it's a shame that GD can't manage to put it even in the top-10 or whatever in the Wisconsin STATE list.



Jay: Can you give details of the book you're writing a chapter in? Is it totally on Lawsonia or is only your chapter touching on it?

[Jay Flemma]

The Book is Golf Architecture Vol. 6 for Paul Daley and Full Swing Publishing.  I drew the chapters on Lawsonia and Bulls Bay.

Great comment by everyone, but isn't the Redan at National pretty far uphill too?  And a long carry to boot!

[PCCraig]

The Book is Golf Architecture Vol. 6 for Paul Daley and Full Swing Publishing.  I drew the chapters on Lawsonia and Bulls Bay.

Great comment by everyone, but isn't the Redan at National pretty far uphill too?  And a long carry to boot!

Is this volume planning to be on the US? Correct me if I'm wrong but that is a more International themed series, correct? If Lawsonia is featured within though I'll make sure to pick up a copy when available (as I've been meaning to do so with Paul's other volumes).


As far as the 4th goes, IMO there is nothing (even in firm conditions) that bounds the ball to the left or right, so if you're aiming at the pin its not a redan right?

[Phil McDade]

As far as the 4th goes, IMO there is nothing (even in firm conditions) that bounds the ball to the left or right, so if you're aiming at the pin its not a redan right?

Pat:

I'm one of those who have said the 4th at Lawsonia bears some Redan-like features -- the deep fronting bunker, the angled green, the choice in the line of attack. As most everyone notes, it does not have the right-to-left tilt of a classic Redan green, and it lacks a true "kicker" area right of the green that could propel a ball toward the green and flag. I've always called it "Redan-like," not a classic Redan.

A Redan -- or at least my reading and study of them, suggest that it can be played in multiple ways. Redans should enable one to aim at the pin -- but it's a difficult shot to pull off, as a Redan green is typically wider than it is deep, so the penalty for a miss is usually severe (either via the fronting bunker or overshooting the green). Redans at courses with proper maintenance melds can be played with a low, running draw, using the kicker plate and tilt of the green to bring the ball closer to the pin. I almost always play the 4th at Lawsonia a third way (because I don't have either a low running draw or the high fade required to attack it in the traditional manner) -- aiming for the "throat" of the opening, and hoping to chip and putt my way to par (and importantly, avoiding the penal bunkers on the hole). I'm always happy for a bogey at #4

[Jay Flemma]

There'll be plenty of US courses and plenty of international courses as well.  Plus chapters from other GCAers as well.  I think it's got some Redanish features...there's reasonable arguments on both sides.  Honestly, I like 2, 3, and 6 more...

Here's the big question...I think Ran and Tom MacWood are right.  I felt like the shaping of the bunkers and the green complexes were in the same vein as the work of the MacRaynorBanks bloodline.  It sure reminded me of things I saw at Essex, Forsgate, National, etc.  Plus the interior contours (thumbprints!) looked very Banks.  What say you?

[Cliff Hamm]

Played Yale with my wife on Monday and asked her if it reminded her of any other course we have played.  Response - "Lawsonia"...

I consider myself only a novice compared with others here but Lawsonia has the same sense of scale, geometric features, deep bunkers, lack of amoeba shaped bunkers, wide fairways, superb green complexes and most of all are extremely fun places to play.  Lawsonia to me is a lite version of a course like Yale.  That is not meant as a criticism, but it is a more manageable course and not as bold.  Both among my favorites.

[Jay Flemma]

Just wanted to follow up with a big thank you to Dan Moore and Phil McDade for all their help with my Lawsonia piece.  I also have input from  Pete Dye, Alice Dye, and Ron Forse, and they have some interesting observations about the similarities between Mac/Raynor/Banks and L&M, and also about the strategies of L&R.  Alice in particular had some great stuff.

We have no concrete meeting found between the players, but the coincidences are astounding.

[Adam Clayman]

The 4th is more of a redan than most of the holes people call redans because its uphill. These faux esque downhillers should not be confused with any Military outpost. Redanesque works for me as a description. Also to try and catagorize it as a second shot course doesn't seem right because of the strategies and heroics tempted by the driving options.

[PCCraig]

Jay:

I enjoyed your piece on your website:

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=3216

I just wish you had gone into the architecture and your thoughts of the course a little bit more.

[Jay Flemma]

Pat:

Ask and ye shall receive.  It's a series.

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=3219

"His wife Alice, as chipper, plucky, and unquenchable a soul as her husband (and probably the best female golf architect in the history of the sport) affirms her husbands assessment. “We thought his work was so terrific – some of the best architecture we’d ever seen – so we copied one of his greens for the 12th green at Crooked Stick. It’s a copy of the 5th at the Maxinkuckee Country Club in Culver, Indiana. Langford also built Culver Academy Golf Club half a mile from Maxinkuckee, and it’s the same as the first green there.”

Alice then offered a terrific breakdown of Langford’s philosophy. “Langford believed par should be protected near the green. Therefore the fairways are generous, but the putting surfaces are perched on shelves with severe drop-offs one or more sides, usually one side, but sometimes on both. Langford’s greens are massive and multi-tiered and guarded by steep-faced bunkers.”

[PCCraig]

.

[Jay Flemma]

The end of the piece...with more from Phil McDade.  Again, thanks to Dick Daley and Dan Moore and everyone else who helped out.

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=3221

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