Cypress Point - The Marion Hollins's shots on the 16th

[Michael Dugger]

Yardages derived from that sketch mean nothing, Neil clearly stated it was drawn by a local artist based on a crude Mackenzie routing...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yardages derived from that sketch mean nothing, Neil clearly stated it was drawn by a local artist based on a crude Mackenzie routing...

Miichael,

The sketch is what it is, a sketch, but the yardages are not a figment of the artist's imagination, they were supplied to him by MacKenzie.

They are accurate, unless you're position is that MacKenzie didn't know how to measure distances

[Patrick_Mucci]

Only Pat Mucci could cite evidence that completely undermines his position (which, in case anyone isn't clear, was that Hollins could not have made the carry from the tee (not the modern tee, the tee)) and claim that it proved himself right. I have to say I admire such chutzpah.

Mark,

I was right.

And, you're being disengenuous, at best, with your absurd post.

I stated that there was no way Marion Hollins hit three balls 220 yards in 1925/6 over that chasm.

Since it's your preference to distort or dishonestly alter my position, here's an excerpt from my original post.

[/color]
The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.

Now that it's been revealed that the hole was 200 yards, NOT 220, my premise, that the 220 yard shot/s  was/were a MYTH, has been proven to be correct.

Only a moron or cretin would claim otherwise.

[Carl Nichols]

Not sure why I'm wading in here again, BUT:

Patrick -- who wrote, and where, that she hit three balls from 220 yards?  That's the alleged myth that you've been trying to disprove, but unless I missed it, and despite lots of attempts by other posters to have you articulate it, you've never provided a clear source for that version -- which looks a lot like a strawman to me.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

quote author=Jon Wiggett link=topic=46176.msg1020517#msg1020517 date=1287470019]

I have not read the last few pages of this thread which I have missed over the last few days. The reason is the Pat M's selective answers. He overlooks replying to questions which he can't answer without contadicting his own theory. It is a shame that such a knowledgable person should act in this slightly blinkered manner

Pat, the facts are:

1. That in 1949 Hogan, by his own admission, was hitting the driver an average of 265 yards.
    John, that includes ROLL.  And, I bet he wasn't hitting it that far in dense, cooler ocean air.
    The FACTS are that Harvie Ward and Venturi confirmed that Hogan hit a driver, SHORT, so why are you inserting totally irrelevant
    elements into the discussion.  What part of the confirmation by Ward and Venturi don't you get ?
Yes Patrik that would include roll but so would his shot on this particular day. Lets assume as you seem to, that Hogan hit it pretty full. Why would it be so short, head wind maybe?. Also, do Ward and Venturi say Hogan or any of the group hit their teeshots full bore? Do we have a date for the supposed Hollin's shot? Maybe this was at a warmer time of yearJon, when it's seasonably warmer the prevailing winds blow out of the west, into the golfer's face.
So you can nix that theory

Patrick, that is why they hit driver, because of the head wind and not the distance. So, if Marion Hollins did not have a head wind and played from 200 yards then the green would have been reachable. You have based your argument on ignoring some facts (head wind) and not knowing or considering others * shorter tee(

Jon, You're ignoring the facts, the headwinds are in the warmer, summer months. 
They played on January 11th, hardly a warmer summer month.
In January, the prevailing winds are ESE, generally helping the golfer.
Why do insist on denying the facts. 
Venturi and Ward said that they hit driver and that Hogan and Nelson hit driver.
Pat Burke, a PGA Tour Pro told you that he's hit driver.
I also told you that I hit driver.


Now you're insanely claiming that they deliberately mishit their drivers ?  ?   ?
Please, just admit to the facts and stop trying to distort them

Harvie Ward indicated that he didn't challenge the tee shot to the green because it was too difficult and the only reason he hit driver that day was because Hogan hit driver.  Why do you keep denying and questioning  facts that have been clearly established ?

Have you ever played the hole .  They ALL hit driver to the green.
Venturi told me he hit driver, Venturi and Ward told Jeff that they both hit driver as did Hogan

2. When the match was played it was not so warm
    I already stated that the temperature was around 62-65 degrees, sweater weather.
    What does that have to do with the FACT that Hogan hit driver that day ?
Cooler weather, more clothing and so less freedom of movement hence shorter shot, maybe!!!

Jon 62-65 is hardly cool weather at CPC.
Accounts indicate that some were wearing sweaters, hardly restrictive clothing

Also does it say anywhere they all hit the driver full tilt?

He came up short.  If he came up a little shorter, he'd be in the ocean, something that I"m sure he wanted to avoid.
All the other golfers also hit driver.
If you know anything about the hole, you know one thing, you don't want to come up short.
Your want to ERR on the LONG side.Maybe he just misjudged or even mishit his shot slightly

Yeah Jon, Hogan who had played the course before , armed with a good caddy, would misjudge the shot.
Maybe you would, but Hogan wouldn't, the same goes for Ward, Venturi and Nelson, who ALL hit driver.

and mishit Patrick? Once again ignoring possibilities that do not fit your vision of events

Now you're claiming that they all selected their club, a driver, with the intent of mishitting it ?
OR, that they mishit their driver.
These were four (4) of the greatest players in the game, playing at the top of their game and you want us to believe that they all mishit their driver,. but, that Marion Hollins, with equipment from 1925 or earlier, pured her driver hitting one or three balls right to the middle of the green.
Do you not see the absurdity of your position ?

Have you ever played the hole ?No, but I bet you didn't back in the 1920's so you cannot judge the Hollin's shot any better than the rest of us.

Jon, that's really a dumb remark, one you wouldn't make if you had played the hole

It seems not so dumb. Had you have played the same shot as Hollins then you would have known about the shorter length
Do you know how stupid that sounds.
First you're defending her alleged shot/s from a location 220/230 from the center of the green, and now you're stating that I should have known about the alternate location only 200 yards from the green.  You can't have it both ways.
No one on this site knew about it until Neil Crafter posted the rendering of CPC circa 1926

And finally Hollins was more than capable of hitting the ball 200+ and maybe she had a helping wind.
So am I and so is Pat Burke a former PGA Tour Pro, but, we both had to hit driver and that was with modern balls and equipment.

Now do you get it ?Pat, are you suggesting that a modern tour pro only hits the ball 220 yards.

Are you calling Pat Burke a liar.
He told you that out of four occassions, three times he hit driver.
I told you that I've hit driver on several occassions.
Why don't you get it ?
I know why, because you're NOT familiar with the hole and the conditions of play


No Pat, I am not calling Pat Burke a liar.  PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION.
Where did I say he or you did not hit driver? But why was driver hit. If we are to believe you it was because of the length hence my comment

Driver was hit because each golfer on the tee felt that driver was the best club for that particular shot.


This is where I have a real problem with your take on things. Modern pro's hit the ball much futher than this even without roll. The only reasons I can think of for a modern tour pro to hit the ball so short with a full blooded driver are: into a strong head wind or massive difference in elevation. Or do you expect anyone to take you seriously in stating this?[/color]

Jon, the wind that day, from a nearby weather station, was at 1.8 knots, hardly a gale.
Take me seriously ?

Pat, anybody with a little knowledge of seaside courses knows that the wind there is never constant. 1.8 will be an average but do you have higwind stats? Maybe this is why Hogan came up short

With a 1.8 average, that means that some wind velocity was higher, and lower than 1.8, but, since you can't go lower than zero, for averaging purposes, the winds couldn't have been that high that day, at their highest.

I think most would agree that the breeze, no matter how slight, usualy comes off the ocean where the ocean meets the land, so, despite prevailing wind recordings at nearby stations, it's not unreasonable to think that ALL the golfers, including Marion Hollins, had a breeze in their face.
Don't forget that oceanside air tends to be heavier as well.

Ward and Venturi stated that they hit driver as did Hogan.
Those guys were there, they know what they hit and what the others hit.
Why do you deny the facts ?
Are you calling Venturi, Ward, jeff, myself and others liars ?

Again, where do I ever say this?

You say it over and over again by insisting that they couldn't have hit drivers or that they mishit their drivers or that gale force winds were buffeting the tee, while Marion Hollins enjoyed a nice breeze at her back.

And now we have some recently discovered facts.
The hole wasn't 220 or 230 yards, it was 200 yards in 1926.
That changes things a bit doesn't it.


yes, Patrick it does. So there is another reason why Hollins could have hit the tee shot and so you discredit your own argument
Jon, you and others need to take a course in logic.

I said that she couldn't hit that shot from 220-230 with balls and equipment from 192j5.

Now we find out that at most, the shot was 200.

So, I was right, the shot/s from 220-230 are a MYTH.

I know it pains you and others to say so, but, just repeat after me.

Pat Mucci was right........................ again.   

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not sure why I'm wading in here again, BUT:

Patrick -- who wrote, and where, that she hit three balls from 220 yards?  That's the alleged myth that you've been trying to disprove, but unless I missed it, and despite lots of attempts by other posters to have you articulate it, you've never provided a clear source for that version -- which looks a lot like a strawman to me.   


Carl,

Irrespective of who said it, everyone on here was declaring that she had in fact hit a shot/s of 220-230 over the chasm.

Neil Crafter posted a version, supposedly from MacKenzie, which claimed she hit the same/similar shot with a Brassie from 230.

I responded that was also a myth, although, others defended it.

Now, it comes to light that at the very longest, her shot was 200 yards and from a more benign location.

Irrespective of where the authorship lies, it's clear that any claim from 220-230 is a myth, with a shot/s from 200 or less, more likely.

[Alex Miller]

Legend had it that Marion Hollins, a terrific golfer and athlete, changed Raynor's thinking regarding the 16th at CPC when he initially planned it as a par 4.

The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.

This allegedly occured in or prior to 1926, when Marion was 34 years of age.

Some on this site insisted that the story is true.

Having played that hole a number of times, starting in 1979, I never believed the story/myth.
I hit driver my first time, I hit it solid and low into the wind and just reached the front of the green.

Think about:
The Ball in 1926
The equipment in 1926
The swing in 1926

Now, fast forward 30 years to January 11, 1956.

A lot had happened in those intervening 30 years in terms of improvements to the ball and equipment.

So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.

First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan.  He hit a driver...... in front of the green

Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson.  He hit a driver...... to six feet

Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi.  He hit a driver....... left of the green

Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward.  He hit a driver....... to five feet.
Ward had previously hit a driver on the hole when he was 7 under par, only to see his round ruined by an 8.

So, the legend would have us believe that Marion Hollins, 30 years earlier, hit the ball as far as Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward.

As an aside, on January 11, 1956, Hogan shot 63, Nelson, 67, Venturi 65 and Ward 67, so it's not as if they were off their games.

Are we to believe that 30 years earlier, with inferior balls and equipment, that Marion Hollins hit THREE balls to the center of the green, a 220 yard shot, a feat that Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward couldn't accomplish amongst themselves ?

Having accompanied Venturi in a match against my dad in 1964, it's beyond belief that Marion Hollins, with equipment of the day (1926), could hit the ball as far as Venturi.  Going a step further, with the equipment of 1926 or 1956 there's NO way that Marion Hollins was a player of Venturi's equal, especially with regard to distance.   The same goes for Ward, Hogan and Nelson.

But, it's a nice fable.

The question is, who started the myth and why ?

 

Pat,

You said 220 first. In answer to your question, the answer is you, and only god knows.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Patrick, did you somehow miss my post up above, with an excerpt form Geoff's CPC book that details that the 200 yard tee in an early drawing was rejected as too awkward, prompting Mackenzie and Hollins to go out to what became the final 16th tee?

[Alex Miller]

After looking at some previous posts it's interesting to note that Geoff Shackleford says the shot occurred in March of 1926 with AM there.

The prevailing wind for March according to Mr. Pat Mucci is WEST! With a helping breeze that shot would probably play closer to 200 than 220 from the current tee, and it seems everyone here believes that she could carry it 200+.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Yes, for Pat's benefit he should turn to pg 36 of Geoff's book. 

[Neil_Crafter]

"Neil Crafter posted a version, supposedly from MacKenzie, which claimed she hit the same/similar shot with a Brassie from 230."

Pat, I have said before and will say it again, that was a random account of the story I got off the internet, and it does not quote Mackenzie. Mackenzie's account in Spirit of St Andrews does NOT give a distance, so it is irrelevant whether you think it was 220, 200 or whatever. mackenzie said she made the carry, whatever it was. I hope that is clear!! Any accounts with the distance added are later embellishments that Mac did not include.

While Geoff says that Mac was there when Hollins made the shot, Mackenzie's own account goes against that.

[Garland Bayley]

...
While Geoff says that Mac was there when Hollins made the shot, Mackenzie's own account goes against that.

Which begs the question, does Geoff have source materials beyond Mac's book? Did Geoff publish a bibliography in his book?

[Jon Wiggett]

Now you're insanely claiming that they deliberately mishit their drivers ?  ?   ?
Please, just admit to the facts and stop trying to distort them

Patrick,

can you show me where I say they "deliberately" mishit their drivers? It seems to me that you twist and misunderstand comments made that do not fit your vision of how events must have been whilst ignoring further facts that you can not assimilate. The quality of your argument is reflected in the way you alter what others say.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, did you somehow miss my post up above, with an excerpt form Geoff's CPC book that details that the 200 yard tee in an early drawing was rejected as too awkward, prompting Mackenzie and Hollins to go out to what became the final 16th tee?

I didn't miss it, it's irrelevant to the issue.

[Patrick_Mucci]

After looking at some previous posts it's interesting to note that Geoff Shackleford says the shot occurred in March of 1926 with AM there.

Alex, hopefully, you're not as obtuse as you seem.

MacKenzie himself indicates that he NEVER witnessed the event, and is SPECIFIC in stating that the event allegedly took place with Raynor, not himself.

So, who are you going to rely on, MacKenzie on page 135 of the book he authored a few years after the alleged event, or Geoff Shackelford's account, authored a distant

OR, are you to believe Geoff Shackelford on page 153 of his book, "The Golden Age of Golf Design" where he relates MacKenzie's third party reference to Hollins executiing the shot for RAYNOR.

The prevailing wind for March according to Mr. Pat Mucci is WEST! With a helping breeze that shot would probably play closer to 200 than 220 from the current tee, and it seems everyone here believes that she could carry it 200+.

Alex, you've gone from obtuse to stupid.

Wind directions are refered to from the direction the wind ORIGINATES.

A WEST wind means that the wind is coming FROM the WEST, NOT blowing TOWARD the west, meaning that Marion Hollins was hitting INTO the wind, not with it as you erroneously claimed.  Since you were so quick to insist that she could make the shot with the wind at her back, I'm sure you'll now inform everyone that she could never make the shot into the wind

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Irrespective of who said it, everyone on here was declaring that she had in fact hit a shot/s of 220-230 over the chasm.

Please post to where I ever once said it. I just said she hit over the chasm and we had no way of knowing how far she had to hit the shot to get across.

I admitted to my mistake in this thread. When you wrote about the Hollins shot I assumed you were talking about the most reliable account; the one MacKenzie writes. When I discovered your account was different than the MacKenzie I asked numerous times where your account came from and you finally admitted it came from Frost's book when someone else asked you. Once you finally admitted your Hollins story wasn't reliable I was done with the argument. I have no reason to believe MacKenzie's account isn't true. I have numerous reasons to believe Frost's account is myth.

Cheers,
Dan King

But myth is something else than an explanation of the world, of history, and of destiny.
 --Paul Ricoeur

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Irrespective of who said it, everyone on here was declaring that she had in fact hit a shot/s of 220-230 over the chasm.

I responded:
Please post to where I ever once said it. I just said she hit over the chasm and we had no way of knowing how far she had to hit the shot to get across.

Patrick, I'm sure I haven't heard back from you because you are going through this thread anxiously looking for somewhere where I said it was a 220-230 shot. It will be much easier for you if you call it a day and apologize.

Either that or you could make the claim that when you said everyone you were using the royal "everyone."

Cheers,
Dan King

Fiction was invented the day Jonas arrived home and told his wife that he was three days late because he had been swallowed by a whale.
 --Gabriel Garcia Marquez

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

You haven't heard back from me because I've been out of town on business for the past 5 days.

But, I'll respond to you as soon as I've caught up and have the time for GCA.com

[Mark Chaplin]

Taken from www.puregolf2010.com hopefully Jamie and Michael will not mind me breaching their copyright. This refers to Machrihanish Dunes in Scotland.

But Belle plays off 1 and still – at the ripe old age of 74 (I hope she won’t mind me saying so) – hits the ball 220 yards or so.  What timing...  She would take counsel; take aim; and nearly drive half the par 4s.  It was a pleasure to watch.

[Brian Phillips]

While Geoff says that Mac was there when Hollins made the shot, Mackenzie's own account goes against that.

Hello Old Codger,

I cannot find anywhere in any of the books that I have, that Geoff states that it was MacKenzie that saw the shot.  On page 36 in the Cypress book I read it as Raynor being the witness.

Now I am getting confused....

Hope all is well in Aus.

[TEPaul]

"I cannot find anywhere in any of the books that I have, that Geoff states that it was MacKenzie that saw the shot.  On page 36 in the Cypress book I read it as Raynor being the witness."

Brian:

Not nessecarily. It says Mackenzie mentioned that Raynor did not think there could be a par 3 there and Hollins disagreed with him. It did not exactly say Hollins hit the shot in the presence of Raynor. Don't forget, when Raynor was there the club and course was a long way from finalizing anything to do with construction. That would take a few more years.

Marion Hollins obviously hit that shot but when and from where is a bit unclear. It probably always will be. So what?

What would be important is to actually find what Raynor did with a routing or whatever.

[Dan King]

Patrick Mucci, I still haven't heard back on your backing up this claim. I had to go to the third page to find this thread and I'm worried you might not have responded because you couldn't find the thread.

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Irrespective of who said it, everyone on here was declaring that she had in fact hit a shot/s of 220-230 over the chasm.

I responded:
Please post to where I ever once said it. I just said she hit over the chasm and we had no way of knowing how far she had to hit the shot to get across.

Patrick, I'm sure I haven't heard back from you because you are going through this thread anxiously looking for somewhere where I said it was a 220-230 shot. It will be much easier for you if you call it a day and apologize.

Either that or you could make the claim that when you said everyone you were using the royal "everyone."

Cheers,
Dan King

You can bend it and twist it... You can misuse and abuse it... But even God cannot change the Truth.
--Michael Levy

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan King,

Trust me, I didn't forget about you.

And, how do you know that she hit a tee shot over the chasm ?

Was there any record of the shot recorded by any eyewitness ?
Did Raynor write about it ?  Hollins ?

As to reviewing this entire thread, I have NOT yet done so, but, I will.

Your position, implied all along that she hit the shot 220.
It's clear that you never rejected the alleged feat.

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan King,

Trust me, I didn't forget about you.

You may not have forgotten, but you clearly have me confused with someone else. You have consistently misconstrued my position.

Your position, implied all along that she hit the shot 220.

I thought we were having a serious discussion. I wasn't ready for this attempt at humor.

It's clear that you never rejected the alleged feat.

We've been over this ground countless times. I have no need or desire to reject Hollins shot (as mentioned by Alister MacKenzie in The Spirit of St. Andrews) to prove your original position is poorly reasoned.  

But back to the question you have avoided answering:

Patrick_Mucci wrote in an earlier post:
Irrespective of who said it, everyone on here was declaring that she had in fact hit a shot/s of 220-230 over the chasm.

I responded:
Please post to where I ever once said it. I just said she hit over the chasm and we had no way of knowing how far she had to hit the shot to get across.

Did you mean to say something else?

Cheers,
Dan King

The right to search for the truth implies also a duty; one must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be the truth.
 --Albert Einstein

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan King,

I didn't forget about you either.

I'm hoping to post a lengthy reply this weekend.