[Alex Miller]

Bernard had something to say about the ladies and distance:

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1932/ag354s.pdf

an excerpt:  There is a certain one-shot hole at Worplesdon which measures by the card one hundred and eighty-five yards, and the green rises to something of a plateau. To this hole in the final Miss Park, who looks as if you could blow her away, took a No. 2 iron with no wind to help her. She laid the ball some twelve feet short of the hole and expressed her satisfaction that she had not put her partner over the green.

Well done Jim! In my eyes this is a far better example any we have seen regarding the length of a woman golfer from that era.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

Have you ever golfed with hickory shafted clubs?  How about those of you who are speculating about this; have you ever golfed with hickories?   If not you should give it a try.  It might be a real eye opener.  

1.  I think you guys may have hickory confused with willow, because this notion that hickory makes for a limp, whippy, and powerless shaft does not ring true to me.    My Wilson "Ted Ray '72" Brassie (circa 1920's) has an original hickory shaft that is much stiffer shaft that the red band True Temper "Step Down" shaft on my Macgregor Ben Hogan 2 Wood (circa 1951.)  The stiffness varies, but generally the better hickory shafts are far from whippy.

2.   Hickory shafted clubs were much more effective that some here seem to think.  In my experience and from what I have read, the hickory shafted drivers were (are) extremely difficult to hit consistently, and they weren't necessarily built for long carries.  The Brassie was more of the bread and butter driving club, and it was very possible to carry a tee shot a comparable distance to a circa 1950's (and later) two or three wood.  

3.  Under calm conditions I can make the carry at CPC 16 with a well struck brassie.  And while you might confuse the two of us appearance wise, no one will confuse my golf game with that of Marion Hollins.

[Pat Burke]

I thought Marion Hollins hit the shot to the green are on #16  right after her trip to Mew York, which
was when she organized the purchase of the land  and helped finalize the design at Merion?

[Jim Nugent]

Is Mackenzie the only source for the story, or did anyone else independently say the same thing?  e.g. I read that Grantland Rice "reported" it, but he may have repeated AM. 

[Mark Chaplin]

Bottom line is the argument cannot be proved or disproved so all this thread does is expose those who can make respectful reasoned argument and those who sadly cannot.

[Garland Bayley]

With all due respect Pat, I think the failure of the argument is Harvie/Ken/Ben/Byron could only hit drivers 220 yards. 
I have to believe each of these men in the prime could hit well over 250+ under normal circumstances. 

Mike, have you ever played the hole ?

Venturi, Nelson and Ward all confirmed that they hit driver and that Hogan hit a driver.
Pat Burke, a PGA Tour Pro at the times he played the hole indicated that on the four occassions that he's teed off on the hole that he hit driver on three of them.  I've hit driver there numerous times.  Compare the ball and the equipment circa 1925 to 1956 to 1972 to 1979 to 1982 to present day.

Pat, how can anyone trust what you say, when you continue with inaccuracies like the one above in blue?

Whether Frost's account is true or not seems irrelevent.  To cite an example of another great golf shot in history...to set up his famous eagle at the 15th at Augusta, Gene Sarazen (all 5ft 5in of him) reportable hit driver 250 yards in 1935.

Mike, have you played the 15th at ANGC.
Are you aware of the favorable impact of roll, firm fairways and terrain ?
By 1935 Steel shafted clubs were widely in use, which wasn't the case in 1925.
And, the temperature and heaviness of the air at CPC differs radically from that at ANGC.

If Gene could drive the ball 250 yards in 1935, I have to believe an accomplished women golfer who could probably kick his tail in a street fight could manage 200-220.

Why do you equate total yardage with carry ?
The two are quite seperate.

The story may be myth, but I have to believe there were a few women who could carry it 200 yards.

As for your little wager...if you set it up and I get to warm up on holes 1-15, I'm in.

Just make sure you pony up the ante before you tee it up, it may be the most rewarding or the most expensive round of your life

[Patrick_Mucci]

With an exhibition of feminine golfing skill such as the Edgewater links will seldom see again, Miss Collett justified her title with a brilliant 38 on the third nine of the scheduled 36-holes with Miss Turpie. That 38 was three under women's par and was made over water-soaked fairways that robbed much of the distance from her shots.........Miss Collett also won the distance driving contest by knocking three golf balls for a total of 659 yards.


That's 219.66 @ Pat  on water-soaked fairways no less

Jim,

The tee for that competition was elevated 46 feet above the fairway on very sunny day with virtually no humidity and an average wind velocity at their backs of 12 knots 

[Patrick_Mucci]

With all due respect Pat, I think the failure of the argument is Harvie/Ken/Ben/Byron could only hit drivers 220 yards. 
I have to believe each of these men in the prime could hit well over 250+ under normal circumstances. 

Mike, have you ever played the hole ?

Venturi, Nelson and Ward all confirmed that they hit driver and that Hogan hit a driver.
Pat Burke, a PGA Tour Pro at the times he played the hole indicated that on the four occassions that he's teed off on the hole that he hit driver on three of them.  I've hit driver there numerous times.  Compare the ball and the equipment circa 1925 to 1956 to 1972 to 1979 to 1982 to present day.

Pat, how can anyone trust what you say, when you continue with inaccuracies like the one above in blue?

Inaccurate ?  Obviously you either can't read or can't remember what you read.

Here's Pat's post:

Played the 1980 Cal Am at Pebble/Cypress.
Weren't allowed practice rounds, so when I got to 16 tried to hit an easy driver (MacGregor w/keyhole insert btw)
Caught it a little thin, hit a couple feet short.
Went ahead an hit one harder, just off the back.  It was cool and into the wind.
Next year, I hit a 3 iron in the center of the green on a cool windless day (60-65 degrees I would guess)
Played AT&T in a gale in 1990 and pummeled the dogwater out of a driver to hit the green (made 5 )

Now go ahead and count em up.

FOUR (4) attempts, with THREE (3) of them with DRIVER

You're perspective has rendered you blind to facts and reason, but, that's nothing new    i

Whether Frost's account is true or not seems irrelevent.  To cite an example of another great golf shot in history...to set up his famous eagle at the 15th at Augusta, Gene Sarazen (all 5ft 5in of him) reportable hit driver 250 yards in 1935.

Mike, have you played the 15th at ANGC.
Are you aware of the favorable impact of roll, firm fairways and terrain ?
By 1935 Steel shafted clubs were widely in use, which wasn't the case in 1925.
And, the temperature and heaviness of the air at CPC differs radically from that at ANGC.

If Gene could drive the ball 250 yards in 1935, I have to believe an accomplished women golfer who could probably kick his tail in a street fight could manage 200-220.

Why do you equate total yardage with carry ?
The two are quite seperate.

The story may be myth, but I have to believe there were a few women who could carry it 200 yards.

As for your little wager...if you set it up and I get to warm up on holes 1-15, I'm in.

Just make sure you pony up the ante before you tee it up, it may be the most rewarding or the most expensive round of your life

[Patrick_Mucci]

The CRUX of the matter is as follows.

If Tommy Naccarato says that there are aliens in Los Angeles, or that someone told him that there are aliens in Los Angeles, the burden of proof IS NOT on others to prove that there aren't aliens in Los Angeles, but, on those making the claim to prove that there are aliens in Los Angeles.

The burden of proof on the alleged shot/s on # 16 at CPC by Marion Hollins is on all those who claim that she made those shots.

Yet, there's not one iota of concrete evidence supporting the alleged shot, only third party hearsay.

NOT ONE EYEWITNESSES.
NOT ONE CONTEMPORANEOUS RECORDING OF THE EVENT

Absent concrete proof of the event, it remains a myth, despite the fact that the circumstances and factors surrounding the alleged event would lead a prudent person to deny or doubt its occurance.

If anyone has any proof of the alleged event, please present it.
Otherwise the alleged event remains a myth, even to all those who just want to argue with me    

[Alex Miller]

The CRUX of the matter is as follows.

If Tommy Naccarato says that there are aliens in Los Angeles, or that someone told him that there are aliens in Los Angeles, the burden of proof IS NOT on others to prove that there aren't aliens in Los Angeles, but, on those making the claim to prove that there are aliens in Los Angeles.

The burden of proof on the alleged shot/s on # 16 at CPC by Marion Hollins is on all those who claim that she made those shots.
 

The burden of proof is on those who make the first claim of fact. That was you, Pat.

[Garland Bayley]

With all due respect Pat, I think the failure of the argument is Harvie/Ken/Ben/Byron could only hit drivers 220 yards. 
I have to believe each of these men in the prime could hit well over 250+ under normal circumstances. 

Mike, have you ever played the hole ?

Venturi, Nelson and Ward all confirmed that they hit driver and that Hogan hit a driver.
Pat Burke, a PGA Tour Pro at the times he played the hole indicated that on the four occassions that he's teed off on the hole that he hit driver on three of them.  I've hit driver there numerous times.  Compare the ball and the equipment circa 1925 to 1956 to 1972 to 1979 to 1982 to present day.

Pat, how can anyone trust what you say, when you continue with inaccuracies like the one above in blue?

Inaccurate ?  Obviously you either can't read or can't remember what you read.

Here's Pat's post:

Played the 1980 Cal Am at Pebble/Cypress.
Weren't allowed practice rounds, so when I got to 16 tried to hit an easy driver (MacGregor w/keyhole insert btw)
Caught it a little thin, hit a couple feet short.
Went ahead an hit one harder, just off the back.  It was cool and into the wind.
Next year, I hit a 3 iron in the center of the green on a cool windless day (60-65 degrees I would guess)
Played AT&T in a gale in 1990 and pummeled the dogwater out of a driver to hit the green (made 5 )

Now go ahead and count em up.

FOUR (4) attempts, with THREE (3) of them with DRIVER

You're perspective has rendered you blind to facts and reason, but, that's nothing new    i

You keep stating he accomplished these as a PGA tour pro. However, the only one done as a PGA Tour pro was the driver into the gale.
The other three attempts were at the California Amateur. Unless they let PGA Tour pros play in the California Amateur, you have been mis-stating the result from the beginning by stating they were performed by a PGA Tour pro and using his PGA Tour driving distances to back up your argument.

Now, would be the appropriate time for an apology.

[Jim Nugent]

The CRUX of the matter is as follows.

If Tommy Naccarato says that there are aliens in Los Angeles, or that someone told him that there are aliens in Los Angeles, the burden of proof IS NOT on others to prove that there aren't aliens in Los Angeles, but, on those making the claim to prove that there are aliens in Los Angeles.

The burden of proof on the alleged shot/s on # 16 at CPC by Marion Hollins is on all those who claim that she made those shots.
 

The burden of proof is on those who make the first claim of fact. That was you, Pat.

Alex, how so?  The first claim of fact is that Marion made the carry. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Garland,

You're getting so desperate, you're being foolish.

Did Pat suddenly experience a quantum leap in his talent, his ability to play golf the day he got his PGA Tour card ?

Who would you say was a better golfer, a better striker of the ball, Pat Burke or Marion Hollins ?

Also, you have failed to answer a question I've asked you repeatedly.

HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED THE 16TH HOLE AT CPC ?  

A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

[Alex Miller]

The CRUX of the matter is as follows.

If Tommy Naccarato says that there are aliens in Los Angeles, or that someone told him that there are aliens in Los Angeles, the burden of proof IS NOT on others to prove that there aren't aliens in Los Angeles, but, on those making the claim to prove that there are aliens in Los Angeles.

The burden of proof on the alleged shot/s on # 16 at CPC by Marion Hollins is on all those who claim that she made those shots.
 

The burden of proof is on those who make the first claim of fact. That was you, Pat.

Alex, how so?  The first claim of fact is that Marion made the carry. 

No one has said that she definitely did make the carry Jim, certainly not I. The story no doubt says she did, but Pat was the one who said that she could not have made the carry. The only person trying to PROVE anything on here is Pat.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

You're getting so desperate, you're being foolish.

Did Pat suddenly experience a quantum leap in his talent, his ability to play golf the day he got his PGA Tour card ?

Who would you say was a better golfer, a better striker of the ball, Pat Burke or Marion Hollins ?

Also, you have failed to answer a question I've asked you repeatedly.

HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED THE 16TH HOLE AT CPC ?  

A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

If my recollection serves me right, Mr. Burke has stated on this website that he was a short knocker when he made it onto the PGA Tour, at which point he made a concerted (and successful) effort to increase his distance. So, yes his ability increased after he got his PGA Tour card.

Since I have seen neither play, I have no idea who would be the better ball striker. However, your arguments would tend to say Marion Hollins was the better ball striker, because she made her significant accomplishment with (according to you) vastly inferior equipment.

I have answered your question about playing the 16th at CPC, it just your memory fails you in recalling the answer.

[Mark Chaplin]

Whether someone has played a hole or no is irrelevent. Most of you probaby haven't played the 460 yard 3th at Deal. I've hit 4 iron, 9 iron and driver, 3 wood, 6 iron all in the summer. Am I short or long? Is the hole difficult?

[Garland Bayley]

It also seems to me that all the discussion of the shafts is mostly irrelevant. The shaft is just a medium for delivering the club head to the ball. It does not give any kick to the ball. The most relevant factors would seem to be the speed of the clubhead, and the COR of the ball and clubhead, and perhaps ball spin.

[Dan King]

Patrick, I've asked you numerous times where you got your Marion Hollins story you mention at the beginning of this thread.
The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.

You have consistently refused to answer. I guess I'll have to guess.

If it came from your own imagination then little wonder you would doubt your own made-up story. If you had told us you just made up a story about Hollins and don't believe your own story I think this thread would have died a long time ago since most of us would have joined you in doubting a story you just created. Since you often make up my position because it is easier for you to argue against than my real opinion, I tend to believe your Hollins story comes from your own imagination. It is much easier to debunk a story you yourself made up than anything you can't control.

If the story came from Mark Frost's book then many of us who know Frost's work would have agreed with you. He is an author who has proven time and time again he can't be trusted. Granted he gets some things right, but it is too much work to do your own verification of everything he writes.  Part of being a historian is learning who you can trust and who you can't. You can't verify everything you read so you learn to trust people who tell you were they get information until you have reason to not trust them.

If you took Outerbridge's story and decided to embellish it on your own then we have two sources we can't really trust.

I take some of the blame for some of this. When you mentioned the Hollins story I didn't read closely enough and assumed you were repeating the story in MacKenzie's book. Your story has no relationship to the one in MacKenzie's book so could not have come from there. I have no reason to doubt the story in MacKenzie's book. Let me repeat -- this doesn't mean I am sure MacKenzie is telling the truth, I just haven't seen any reason to doubt his story.

So once again, where did the above Marion Hollins story come from?

Cheers,
Dan King

I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
 --Friedrich Nietzsche

[Mark Pearce]

Alex, how so?  The first claim of fact is that Marion made the carry. 

Jim,

Read the thread.  No-one has claimed that Hollins definitely made the shot.  Pat has claimed it wasimpossible for her to do so.  He has failed to prove it and the burden of proof is on him.  I think you have bought a Mucci dummy.

[Dan King]

Garland Bayley writes:
It also seems to me that all the discussion of the shafts is mostly irrelevant. The shaft is just a medium for delivering the club head to the ball. It does not give any kick to the ball. The most relevant factors would seem to be the speed of the clubhead, and the COR of the ball and clubhead, and perhaps ball spin.

According to Bernard Darwin in Golf Between Two Wars the short hitters were much quicker to make the switch to steel than the long hitters. The long hitters were happy with the equipment they had and took much longer to switch. Bobby Jones won his four championships in 1930 using equipment with hickory shafts -- despite both the USGA and R&A legalizing steel shafts by then.

The more pertinent part of the story is we can be fairly certain Hollins hit the 1.62 ball and the four golfers in 1956 hit the 1.68 ball. In general the 1.62 ball was better for hitting distance, the 1.68 ball better for accuracy.

Cheers,
Dan King

History is the study of lies, anyway, because no witness ever recalls events with total accuracy, not even eyewitnesses.
 --Nancy Pickard

[Tony_Muldoon]

More than anything Pat just loves a fight, reminds me of...

http://tiny.cc/gqfpc

relevant part is 2 mins in.

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat,

I seem to remember back in 1997 that Mhari McKay, then a student at Stanford, not only hit the green with a three wood but had a hole in one. Miss McKay stands all of five foot six, a mere stripling compared to Hollins. Yes, she probably did use a steel or graphite shafted club and possibly a hot ball, but she did something that your pros did in 1956, only better. You can check this out by calling the CPC Golf Shop at 831-624-2223.

Bob

[Neil_Crafter]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Just because there are no eyewitnesses alive today, nor eyewitness accounts, does not mean that Hollins did not make the shot and it is automatically a myth. Hollins certainly must have told Mackenzie about it when he and she were planning the course after Raynor's death. therefore the account is second hand, but in my view reliable as Mac got it from the horse's mouth so to speak.

pat started the thread with the aim of debunking what he said was a myth. So the onus is on him to disprove it. Again, I have seen no-one here claim she categorically did it. Like I said before, I believe she did. Do I know she did? No I do not. Pretty clear.

[Tom Birkert]

Pat,

I seem to remember back in 1997 that Mhari McKay, then a student at Stanford, not only hit the green with a three wood but had a hole in one. Miss McKay stands all of five foot six, a mere stripling compared to Hollins. Yes, she probably did use a steel or graphite shafted club and possibly a hot ball, but she did something that your pros did in 1956, only better. You can check this out by calling the CPC Golf Shop at 831-624-2223.

Bob

Mhari is my best friend's cousin, and I have talked to her about this (out of jealousy!). I have also played with her, and she is far from a long hitter.

I have been fortunate enough to play the hole twice, and have parred it twice. First time I hit 3 hybrid, second time 2 hybrid.

I'm not really bothered if Ms Hollins managed the carry or not. I think she could well have been able to, but that doesn't particularly matter.

I think it's a romantic story and one which adds to the allure of the hole (and puts some more pressure on Male golfers when they play there!).

I am just incredibly thankful the hole is there and is how it is. It is golfing heaven.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Just because there are no eyewitnesses alive today,

I NEVER asked that any eyewitness be alive today.
I just asked for anyone to identify one eyewitness.

nor eyewitness accounts, does not mean that Hollins did not make the shot and it is automatically a myth.

Of course it does/is.
If a statement or event can't be verified, if there's no eyewitness or eyewitness account, then you can't accept romantic notions/legends as having occured.

Hollins certainly must have told Mackenzie about it when he and she were planning the course after Raynor's death.

That's nonsense, and is solely based on your acceptance that the event actually occured.
If it didn't occur, where did MacKenzie get his information from ?

therefore the account is second hand, but in my view reliable as Mac got it from the horse's mouth so to speak.

That's  UNVERIFIED speculation and wishful thinking on your part

pat started the thread with the aim of debunking what he said was a myth. So the onus is on him to disprove it. Again, I have seen no-one here claim she categorically did it. Like I said before, I believe she did. Do I know she did? No I do not. Pretty clear.
When you examine the circumstances, I don't see how a prudent individual could accept the alleged event as factual.
I'm hoping to have more evidence to support my claim shortly

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