Cypress Point - The Marion Hollins's shots on the 16th

[Patrick_Mucci]

Neil, Dan, et., al.,

What's amazing is that there's NO recorded description of the 1926 event by ANY witness.

Yet, you believe the myth without a shred of supporting evidence from ANY eyewitness.

You continue to state that Frost made everything up, yet you can't produce a witness or the author who recorded the alleged shot by Hollins in 1926.  Nor can you identify what you allege Frost made up concerning the golf on 01-11-56.

How can you cling to an unauthenticated story, one without so much as one eyewitness, while attempting to dismiss accounts by the participants ?

If that's the way you conduct your research and that's what you base your conclusions on, your work would be classified somewhere between academically unsound to intellectually dishonest to fraudulent.

Why the blind attempts to perpetuate the myth ?

If you can't prove the alleged story, if you don't have so much as one eyewitness to the event, how can you adamantly defend and declare it's authenticity ?

[Kevin_Reilly]

Dan, you are arguing with a Green Wall.

Patrick cites a 1.8 knot wind for the day, from a weather station 6 miles away as evidence of the fact that wind wasn't a factor on "drives" by the four players in The Match (and ignores the fact that the flag on #17 was waving in the breeze).  'A' denotes the weather station that provided the wind figure for the day.



Patrick ignores the fact that The Match took place the second week of January, and as you and I both know living in Northern California and having spent as much time over the last several decades on the Monterey Peninsula as Patrick has spent either on GCA or at NLGA, the temperature is not exactly tropical at that time of the year.  In fact, citing the same more-inland weather station that Patrick used, the low temperature for that day in January was 44 degrees and the average was a balmy 53 degrees.  Not exactly temperatures that would produce maximum distances for the four players in The Match.  Nelson's "drive" cut through "mist" on #16...again not exactly conditions ideal for distance.

Patrick also says that there were "thousands of witnesses" to the shots on #16.  Did George Coleman erect grandstands or something?  Did Greyhound run shuttles for the spectators that found out about The Match via carrier pigeon or telegraph?  I've stood on that spot and I have no idea where these thousands of spectators would stand.  Maybe Patrick is looking at the book's photoshopped cover photo from the 1949 Crosby and thinks it was from the Match?

Original picture:



Book cover...notice that the group on the tee has changed...the marvels of Photoshop...sets the tone for some of the contents of the book.



As to the ability of Ms. Hollins to hit a ball 200+ yards, well I don't know how we might convince Patrick that it was possible.  Pictures usually say a thousand words, but obviously Patrick sees something in the above pictures of Ms. Hollins that the rest of us don't see.  Not that there is anything wrong with that...one man's East German shot put medalist is another man's lithe temptress.  

Patrick wants eyewitnesses to the shot by Ms. Hollins....well, Seth Raynor isn't around so I will have to settle for the pictures above, and they are good enough for me.

As for Mark Frost...as soon as I or anyone else can locate "Harvie's Meadow" (sic) at SFGC (pg 224), I will have greater respect for the quality of his writing.

[rchesnut]

Six years ago my family and I purchased Ms. Hollins' home at Pasatiempo.  When we bought the house, the previous owners, in the disclosures, informed us that the house was still inhabited by Ms. Hollins' spirit, and we had to accept title to the property with that disclosure.  I won't go into what they saw and heard, and what we've seen during our time here...but I will put the question to Ms. Hollins myself tonight...and Patrick I'll tell her that you are the one publicly calling her out and attempting to discredit her good name and her ability to strike a golf ball.   I'd sleep with one eye open tonight if I were you.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan, you are arguing with a Green Wall.

Patrick cites a 1.8 knot wind for the day, from a weather station 6 miles away as evidence of the fact that wind wasn't a factor on "drives" by the four players in The Match (and ignores the fact that the flag on #17 was waving in the breeze).  'A' denotes the weather station that provided the wind figure for the day.



Patrick ignores the fact that The Match took place the second week of January, and as you and I both know living in Northern California and having spent as much time over the last several decades on the Monterey Peninsula as Patrick has spent either on GCA or at NLGA, the temperature is not exactly tropical at that time of the year.  

I already cited that, Perhaps your reading comprehension skills need a refresher course.

In fact, citing the same more-inland weather station that Patrick used, the low temperature for that day in January was 44 degrees and the average was a balmy 53 degrees.

You forget that he low occured at night and the average temperature for the day includes the night temperatures.
You probably didn't know this, but, stehy played during the day, teeing off at after 10:00 am when the temperatures hit 62-65 degrees, pretty nice weather for golf isn't it

Why would you disengenuously include night time readings when the match was played from approximately 10:30 to 3:00 ?
The warmest part of the day 

Not exactly temperatures that would produce maximum distances for the four players in The Match.  Nelson's "drive" cut through "mist" on #16...again not exactly conditions ideal for distance.

Kevin, anyone familiar with temperatures knows that the ocean produces milder temperatures with the temperature that day at 62-65

Patrick also says that there were "thousands of witnesses" to the shots on #16.  Did George Coleman erect grandstands or something?  Did Greyhound run shuttles for the spectators that found out about The Match via carrier pigeon or telegraph?  I've stood on that spot and I have no idea where these thousands of spectators would stand.  Maybe Patrick is looking at the book's photoshopped cover photo from the 1949 Crosby and thinks it was from the Match?

I believe I referenced "HUNDREDS" if not thousands

How many witnessed Marion Hollins's alleged shot ?

Original picture:



Book cover...notice that the group on the tee has changed...the marvels of Photoshop...sets the tone for some of the contents of the book.



As to the ability of Ms. Hollins to hit a ball 200+ yards, well I don't know how we might convince Patrick that it was possible.  Pictures usually say a thousand words, but obviously Patrick sees something in the above pictures of Ms. Hollins that the rest of us don't see.  Not that there is anything wrong with that...one man's East German shot put medalist is another man's lithe temptress.  

Patrick wants eyewitnesses to the shot by Ms. Hollins....well, Seth Raynor isn't around so I will have to settle for the pictures above, and they are good enough for me.

As for Mark Frost...as soon as I or anyone else can locate "Harvey's Meadow" (sic) at SFGC (pg 224), I will have greater respect for the quality of his writing.
Kevin, can you cite one error in Frost's description of the golf that day.

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Nelson stopped playing the PGA Tour because he had done it all, he had won over and over and over again.
He didn't stop playing golf.

Isn't that the definition of retired? In your world does retiring from professional golf mean you never again touch a golf club?

Hogan wasn't semi-retired.
Nine years later, at age 53, he tied for 15th at the PGA Championship

He was past his prime and semi-retired. He and Nelson were not the great golfers they were in the past. Hogan won at least 63 PGA events before 1956 and one after. Nelson won some 52 events prior to 1956, zero after.

Venturi and Ward were alreeady world class golfers

I guess it depends on how you define world class. They were excellent amateur golfers, but their records weren't exactly stellar the times they competed as amateurs against the best players in the era.

They'd be playing the more benign tees, not the heroic tees.

Unless you have another story, I've never heard that Hollins hit from the championship tees. All I've ever heard is she hit across the chasm to where the green would eventually be put. Do you have a story that says she hit from the non-existent championship tees?

It's a heroic carry, it's oceanside air, it was I&B circa 1926 and it was a woman amateur

I'm no expert on equipment, so I generally rely on Mr. Jeffery Ellis for equipment info. As has been mentioned numerous times, the 1.62 ball would have been easier to get across the bit of ocean. In 1926 steel shafts were in reasonably widespread use in the United States (The R&A still didn't allow them.) I was thinking one of the changes was the bulge to the driver, something I have read credited to Nelson. But according to Ellis the bulged face driver was fairly common in the 1910s.

So what were these revolutions in driver design between 1926 and 1956 that allowed the four golfers to reach and wouldn't have allowed Hollins to reach?

I'm also no expert on the golf swing -- which anyone who has ever golfed with me can verify. Your better argument than I&B is the changes to the swing with the new popularity of metal shafts. I'm not sure if the change to the typical swing would have made the golf shots longer or were more for accuracy.

If that's the way you conduct your research and that's what you base your conclusions on, your work would be classified somewhere between academically unsound to intellectually dishonest to fraudulent.

Please quote anything I said that was unsound, dishonest or fraudulent. If you can't you should apologize.

Why the blind attempts to perpetuate the myth ?

When did I ever attempt to perpetuate anything about Hollins at Cypress Point?

If you can't prove the alleged story, if you don't have so much as one eyewitness to the event, how can you adamantly defend and declare it's authenticity ?

I have never once tried to defend the Hollins story. It's possible the Hollins story is a myth, it is also possible it is true. You made an attempt to debunk the story, and as I have shown, you have failed at every step. You got to come up with reasonable reasons why she wouldn't have been able to do it. The fact that four other (very good golfers) could do it 30 years later doesn't prove she couldn't do it in 1926.
 
Cheers,
Dan King

The 1925 U.S. Open saw widespread use of metal shafts. Even Willie Macfarlane, the eventual champion, used steel shaft woods.
 --Jeffery B. Ellis

[Patrick_Mucci]

I may have a solution to the debate/dilema.

Let's have all those insisting that Marion Hollins hit three balls onto the green/site from 220 yards, wager that they can do the same thing with balls and clubs from 1926.

I'm sure that I can find clubs from 1926.
Balls may be a little harder to come by.

Which one of those claiming the authenticity of the fete would be willing to place a substantial wager where the failure or success of doing so, is amply punished/rewarded.

I'll bank the bets to your hearts content

Then, for half the money you lose, you can try it with a driver and balls circa 1956.

Then, for a quarter of the money you've lost, I'll let you try it with today's I&B.

That's fair isn't it.

Eddie Lowery, if you're listening, how much action do you want.
The syndicate line forms at the right

[Neil_Crafter]

Pat
Twice I have asked you a direct question on this and each time you have not answered me. If you do not wish to answer that is fine, but it is your thread.

Most likely the only witnesses to the "event" were Raynor and Hollins herself. Raynor went and died shortly after so that kind of ruled him out from writing an account. And Marion told Mackenzie about it, no doubt to influence him to make the hole as a par 3 as she wanted - not for the reason of promoting her own abilities, as I suspect she was a fairly self-effacing person.

Mackenzie then recorded what Hollins told him in his writings for what became Spirit of St Andrews. To disbelieve that it happened, you have to disbelieve both Hollins and Mackenzie. You can do that if you like, but I believe it happened, just look at the photo of her at the top of her swing.

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Kevin, can you cite one error in Frost's description of the golf that day.

Perhaps you missed this in the other thread or you don't know how to look back in a thread.

Bob_Huntley wrote on August 12, 2008:
Between watching the Olympics and the PGA Championship I re-read Mark Frost's  'The Match."

I must say that it was a jolly good read but I closed the covers thinking that he is one sloppy writer.

Some the the irritants to me were his description of Hogan looking like a middleweight at 145lbs...when 160lbs was the limit for that particular class. He claims that Hogan holds the course record at Cypress, with a 63. If he thinks that conceded putts in a match play event constitutes a record, then his golfing knowledge is sadly lacking.

On page 31 he writes "that Coleman never owned his own mansion in Monterey but rented a New England Style cottage in the hills above Pebble Beach." I wrote to George Coleman's daughter in Venice and her letter below disputes that and also that Hogan did not stay with Crosby.

"Hello Bob,
 
No, we owned a house on the corner next to the Lodge. It is the  Cottage
which is for sale now. Mother and Daddy rented before the war, but after  the war
they bought the house and never rented again They always rented the old  Morse
house which isn't there any more. Not everything in the book is right.  Hogan
never stayed with Crosby. I can't say the house they  bought was  a mansion.
They kept building on.
 
All the best to you and your wife,
 
Sarah"

Back in 1970/71 I was invited to play in a fourball match at Cypress by Jack Westland. He would partner Art Bell and I would play with Harvie Ward. Harvie teased Bell by never conceding him a putt and causing him untold anguish as by that time Bell was an awful putter. We won the match and had a drink afterward and Ward  mentioned the match with no great appreciation that it had changed the game forever. He was still using the same rusty old putter and said " I may change wives but never this."

Cheers,
Dan King

Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic.
 --Fyodor Dostoyevsky

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Nelson stopped playing the PGA Tour because he had done it all, he had won over and over and over again.
He didn't stop playing golf.

Isn't that the definition of retired? In your world does retiring from professional golf mean you never again touch a golf club?

Dan, what did Nelson shoot that day ?

Hogan wasn't semi-retired.
Nine years later, at age 53, he tied for 15th at the PGA Championship

He was past his prime and semi-retired.

He and Nelson were not the great golfers they were in the past.
Really,  what did HOGAN and NELSON shoot that day ?

Hogan won at least 63 PGA events before 1956 and one after. Nelson won some 52 events prior to 1956, zero after.

Venturi and Ward were alreeady world class golfers

I guess it depends on how you define world class. They were excellent amateur golfers, but their records weren't exactly stellar the times they competed as amateurs against the best players in the era.

They'd be playing the more benign tees, not the heroic tees.

Unless you have another story, I've never heard that Hollins hit from the championship tees. All I've ever heard is she hit across the chasm to where the green would eventually be put. Do you have a story that says she hit from the non-existent championship tees?

Dan, what do you mean that you never heard that she hit from the championship tees.
One account says she hit three balls from 220, another that she hit a brassie from 220-230
You don't think those were the Lady's or Senior tees do you ?

It's a heroic carry, it's oceanside air, it was I&B circa 1926 and it was a woman amateur

I'm no expert on equipment, so I generally rely on Mr. Jeffery Ellis for equipment info. As has been mentioned numerous times, the 1.62 ball would have been easier to get across the bit of ocean. In 1926 steel shafts were in reasonably widespread use in the United States (The R&A still didn't allow them.) I was thinking one of the changes was the bulge to the driver, something I have read credited to Nelson. But according to Ellis the bulged face driver was fairly common in the 1910s.
Do you know which shaft Marion Hollins was using ?  Or, are you just making an assumption to help your case

So what were these revolutions in driver design between 1926 and 1956 that allowed the four golfers to reach and wouldn't have allowed Hollins to reach?

True temper shafts for one.
Stepped shafts for another
Inserts for another

I'm also no expert on the golf swing -- which anyone who has ever golfed with me can verify. Your better argument than I&B is the changes to the swing with the new popularity of metal shafts. I'm not sure if the change to the typical swing would have made the golf shots longer or were more for accuracy.

If that's the way you conduct your research and that's what you base your conclusions on, your work would be classified somewhere between academically unsound to intellectually dishonest to fraudulent.

Please quote anything I said that was unsound, dishonest or fraudulent. If you can't you should apologize.

Why the blind attempts to perpetuate the myth ?

When did I ever attempt to perpetuate anything about Hollins at Cypress Point?

If you can't prove the alleged story, if you don't have so much as one eyewitness to the event, how can you adamantly defend and declare it's authenticity ?

I have never once tried to defend the Hollins story. It's possible the Hollins story is a myth, it is also possible it is true. You made an attempt to debunk the story, and as I have shown, you have failed at every step. You got to come up with reasonable reasons why she wouldn't have been able to do it. The fact that four other (very good golfers) could do it 30 years later doesn't prove she couldn't do it in 1926.

Very good golfers ?  You're kidding and trying to diminish their abilities
 
Cheers,
Dan King

The 1925 U.S. Open saw widespread use of metal shafts. Even Willie Macfarlane, the eventual champion, used steel shaft woods.
 --Jeffery B. Ellis

[Garland Bayley]

Pat,

We don't want the truth....we cannot handle the truth!

Don't spoil such a good story....

Brian,

You're right and I should know better.

What I'm surprised by is how some, especially those who have never played the hole, are adamantly clinging to the authenticity of an  undocumented event, especially in light of the nature of the equipment in 1926 and the talent of the four participants on 01-11-56, along with the experiences of Pat Burke, Jeff Dawson, myself and others

What I'm surprised by is how some, especially those who have never played in 1926 with the equipment of the day would adamantly claim than it could not be used for an event reported a medical doctor and an engineer, but most decidedly not by a lawyer, especially in light of the of the talent of the executor of the event, and the fictional details of an event purported to contradict the possibilities of the event.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I wonder how many times Marion hollins played that hole after it was built, and how many times she made it onto the green with a driver?

[Garland Bayley]

I wonder how many times Marion hollins played that hole after it was built, and how many times she made it onto the green with a driver?

She never needed driver after that first time. She got by with brassie from then on.

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan, what did Nelson shoot that day ?
Really,  what did HOGAN and NELSON shoot that day ?

They were playing match play. Did they both finish every hole?

Does shooting a really good score on a single day not in competition in match play make you better than players that shoot less of a score in competition in medal play?

Dan, what do you mean that you never heard that she hit from the championship tees.
One account says she hit three balls from 220, another that she hit a brassie from 220-230
You don't think those were the Lady's or Senior tees do you ?

From Alister MacKenzie's The Spirit of St. Andrews pg 135:
"It was suggested to her by the late Seth Raynor that it was a pity the carry over the ocean was too long to enable a hole to be designed on this particular site. Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove to the middle of the site of the suggested green."

If it is some story other than MacKenzie's whose story are you trying to debunk? If it was the  silly one you read on the internet that claimed Hollins was the owner of the property then there are much better ways to debunk that story.

Do you know which shaft Marion Hollins was using ?  Or, are you just making an assumption to help your case

I made no assumption. I am saying according to Jeffrey Ellis metal shafts were becoming fairly popular by 1926. Again, I'm not debunking the story, I'm telling you that you have failed to debunk the story.

True temper shafts for one.

Jeffrey Ellis page 150:
Robert Crowley applied for the true temper shaft patent in 1922 and it was granted on July 6, 1926. Do you know if Hollins did not use the existing true temper shafts?

Stepped shafts for another

Makes the shaft stronger, does it enable the golfer to hit the ball farther?

Inserts for another

According to Ellis, there were inserts in clubs made in the 1920s.

In the 1920s Hollins was a rich and well-known woman. She would have had no trouble getting top-of-the-line golf clubs.

Very good golfers ?  You're kidding and trying to diminish their abilities

I don't believe so. Are you denying the four of them were very good golfers?

They were not the best golfers in the world in 1956. They were really damn good, but not the best.

Are you still insisting I have claimed the Hollins story is true or from your silence do I assume you admit you were wrong about my position?

Cheers,
Dan King

There was not a missed shot in the whole round. It seems we were tying ever hole with birdies [Only three holes were halved with pars, the first, eleventh and fourteenth].
 --Ken Venturi (on the 1956 match between amateurs Venturi and Ward against legends Hogan and Nelson at Cypress Point)

[Jim Nugent]

I'm surprised either side is adamant about this.  As it stands, it's unknown.  Pat nails the weaknesses in the story: no witnesses, told 2nd or 3rd hand, involving a shot that was so long, two of the best male players in the world -- Ward and Hogan -- normally didn't try it 30 years later. 

The debate over Frost's info is a red herring now.  Two of the participants confirmed Frost was right.  i.e. we don't need Frost as a source anymore.  Two of the guys who took part in the match say they hit driver.  One of them says all four hit driver. 

Let me list some of the unknowns about this story.  We don't know what the weather was.  We don't know what the wind was.  We don't know what club she hit (steel shaft?  Not yet legal, either in the U.S. or Britain).  We don't know where she teed from (195 yard carry or 220 yard carry?).  We don't know what ball she played.  We don't know how far she could hit the ball then, or how far she needed to hit the ball that day. 

Maybe nothing happened at all.  Maybe Marion hit a bunch of balls, many different times, and got some across the chasm.  Maybe the story is 100% accurate, exactly as it stands.  How can we possibly know, and how can anyone be so certain of their belief?   

[Neil_Crafter]

Jim, I for one am not absolutely certain in my belief. However, I have no reason to doubt Mackenzie and by inference, Hollins. In terms of Mythbusters, I'd say its Plausible.

As for Frost's info, I have not read the book, but I am assuming it is the source for Pat's info that she hit three balls. This is in direct contrast to the one ball of Mac's account, which as far as I can tell was the first account of Hollins' feat.

[Jim Nugent]

Raynor died January 23, 1926.  The chronology I just read of his last days says he spent time in Hawaii, designing two courses there.  He got very sick, came back to the mainland and immediately headed to Palm Springs.  That is where he died.

So if Marion made the shot in front of Raynor, it likely happened earlier than 1926.  

Neil, I thought before this thread that Mac saw Hollins hit the shot.  That's why I took it as true: the alternative is that he lied.  The fact that AM didn't see the shot, and only heard the story (who knows from whom?), means it carries a lot less weight for me.   

Again we don't need Frost anymore.  Ward and Venturi both say they hit driver.  Venturi said all four hit driver. 

[Sean Leary]

I may have a solution to the debate/dilema.

Let's have all those insisting that Marion Hollins hit three balls onto the green/site from 220 yards, wager that they can do the same thing with balls and clubs from 1926.

I'm sure that I can find clubs from 1926.
Balls may be a little harder to come by.

Which one of those claiming the authenticity of the fete would be willing to place a substantial wager where the failure or success of doing so, is amply punished/rewarded.

I'll bank the bets to your hearts content

Then, for half the money you lose, you can try it with a driver and balls circa 1956.

Then, for a quarter of the money you've lost, I'll let you try it with today's I&B.

That's fair isn't it.

Eddie Lowery, if you're listening, how much action do you want.
The syndicate line forms at the right

IN! What day are we playing? 

The day I played there, our caddy who had been caddying there for 30 years, told us that he had NEVER raked the back bunker in 16. An elderly gentleman in my group proceeded to FLY it into the back bunker with a strong wind slightly into us from the right with 3 wood. Now do I think that he had NEVER actually seen anyone in that bunker, no. But it makes for a good story and encourages people to hit enough club.

I think the story is either legend, as Pat suggests, or it wasn't from the back tee and since there was no green, the middle of the green part is fabrication for the story.

[Tim Bert]

I may have a solution to the debate/dilema.

Let's have all those insisting that Marion Hollins hit three balls onto the green/site from 220 yards, wager that they can do the same thing with balls and clubs from 1926.

I'm sure that I can find clubs from 1926.
Balls may be a little harder to come by.

Which one of those claiming the authenticity of the fete would be willing to place a substantial wager where the failure or success of doing so, is amply punished/rewarded.

I'll bank the bets to your hearts content

Then, for half the money you lose, you can try it with a driver and balls circa 1956.

Then, for a quarter of the money you've lost, I'll let you try it with today's I&B.

That's fair isn't it.

Eddie Lowery, if you're listening, how much action do you want.
The syndicate line forms at the right

Pat is this event sanctioned by the club or are we sneaking on??? 

Do we get to play all 18 or just hit shots at the 16th?

Finally, if some are suggesting that Marion could do it with that equipment, how does proving that those making the claims can't do it prove that Marion couldn't do it if Marion was a superior golfer to the participants? 

This is just a creative ploy fishing for access, isn't it?  You don't care about the outcome in the least.   

[Garland Bayley]

Pat,

If you are going to hit a ball that has high spin off the driver (e.g., the balata covered balls used back in the day) into the wind, do you go all out to hit it hard? Or, do you let up a little to reduce the spin? You've made the shot. What club did you use? What was the wind? What kind of swing did you give it? Into the wind, do you tee a 3 wood to hit it low? Or do you hit less than a full driver?

[DMoriarty]

I may have a solution to the debate/dilema.

Let's have all those insisting that Marion Hollins hit three balls onto the green/site from 220 yards, wager that they can do the same thing with balls and clubs from 1926.

I'm sure that I can find clubs from 1926.
Balls may be a little harder to come by.

Which one of those claiming the authenticity of the fete would be willing to place a substantial wager where the failure or success of doing so, is amply punished/rewarded.

Patrick, I've a feeling that this challenge will turn against you about everyone (anyone?) who had been with you.

Bob Huntley wrote above that in the 1970s he hit the green 13 times in a row with a three wood.  While Bob is larger than life in many ways, I doubt he was ever quite as physically impressive as Miss Marion Hollins.   

Also Patrick, I think you may be overestimating distance advancements due to improving club technology between the 1920's and 1950s.   Not so sure about the impact on the ball, but 1920's era brassies worked very well. 

[Dan King]

Jim Nugent writes:
I'm surprised either side is adamant about this.  As it stands, it's unknown.

Is there someone out there arguing they know Hollins hit the shots? The arguments I've participated in and I've seen others participate in is the poor reasoning by Patrick with his claim that he has proved it didn't happen.

Pat nails the weaknesses in the story: no witnesses, told 2nd or 3rd hand, involving a shot that was so long, two of the best male players in the world -- Ward and Hogan -- normally didn't try it 30 years later.

This is the problem with using the shots made 30 years later to some how prove it couldn't have happened. There are far too many variables between the 1926 and 1956 event. I have not seen any reason to believe Hollins could not have hit a shot over the chasm. To say Cypress membership could hit the shot but Hollins (One of the longest women hitters of her era) couldn't is not very convincing.

The debate over Frost's info is a red herring now.

It depends. Is that were Mucci got his story of her dropping three balls and hitting them 220 to what would be the middle of the green came from? I'm not about to read Frost's book, so I have no idea if that is where Mucci got his three ball story.

Two of the participants confirmed Frost was right.  i.e. we don't need Frost as a source anymore.  Two of the guys who took part in the match say they hit driver.  One of them says all four hit driver.

I'm more than willing to concede the four golfers in 1956 hit driver. What does that prove about 1926?
 
Let me list some of the unknowns about this story.  We don't know what the weather was.  We don't know what the wind was.  We don't know what club she hit (steel shaft?  Not yet legal, either in the U.S. or Britain).

Metal shafts were legal in the U.S. as of an executive committee meeting on January 10, 1925. Willie Macfarlane won the 1925 U.S. Open using steel shafts. They had been around since the 19th century and weren't made illegal by the R&A until 1919 with the USGA quickly following. According to Jeffery Ellis "Between 1910 and 1925, no fewer than nineteen different British and American patents dealt with metal shafts." We have no way of knowing if Hollins used one of these metal shafts or not.
 
Maybe nothing happened at all.  Maybe Marion hit a bunch of balls, many different times, and got some across the chasm.  Maybe the story is 100% accurate, exactly as it stands.  How can we possibly know, and how can anyone be so certain of their belief?  

Amen, brother. This has been my argument with Patrick since the beginning of this thread. We don't know. He believes because the four golfers hit driver in 1956 it proves Hollins couldn't have done it in 1926. My original argument was just because Frost said something took place in 1956 doesn't make it true. Frost is an unreliable source. Even conceding all using drivers in 1956 does nothing to prove what did or didn't happen in 1926 (or 1925).

Now Patrick is saying he can prove she didn't hit the shot by having a bunch of us go out and try to replicate the shot. I have no idea what he thinks that will prove -- it doesn't do anything to change all of the unknowns from Hollins shot.

Cheers,
Dan King

Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence.
 --Joseph Wood Krutch

[Jim Nugent]

Jim Nugent writes:
I'm surprised either side is adamant about this.  As it stands, it's unknown.

Is there someone out there arguing they know Hollins hit the shots? The arguments I've participated in and I've seen others participate in is the poor reasoning by Patrick with his claim that he has proved it didn't happen.

Pat nails the weaknesses in the story: no witnesses, told 2nd or 3rd hand, involving a shot that was so long, two of the best male players in the world -- Ward and Hogan -- normally didn't try it 30 years later.

This is the problem with using the shots made 30 years later to some how prove it couldn't have happened. There are far too many variables between the 1926 and 1956 event. I have not seen any reason to believe Hollins could not have hit a shot over the chasm. To say Cypress membership could hit the shot but Hollins (One of the longest women hitters of her era) couldn't is not very convincing.

The debate over Frost's info is a red herring now.

It depends. Is that were Mucci got his story of her dropping three balls and hitting them 220 to what would be the middle of the green came from? I'm not about to read Frost's book, so I have no idea if that is where Mucci got his three ball story.

Two of the participants confirmed Frost was right.  i.e. we don't need Frost as a source anymore.  Two of the guys who took part in the match say they hit driver.  One of them says all four hit driver.

I'm more than willing to concede the four golfers in 1956 hit driver. What does that prove about 1926?
 
Let me list some of the unknowns about this story.  We don't know what the weather was.  We don't know what the wind was.  We don't know what club she hit (steel shaft?  Not yet legal, either in the U.S. or Britain).

Metal shafts were legal in the U.S. as of an executive committee meeting on January 10, 1925. Willie Macfarlane won the 1925 U.S. Open using steel shafts. They had been around since the 19th century and weren't made illegal by the R&A until 1919 with the USGA quickly following. According to Jeffery Ellis "Between 1910 and 1925, no fewer than nineteen different British and American patents dealt with metal shafts." We have no way of knowing if Hollins used one of these metal shafts or not.
 
Maybe nothing happened at all.  Maybe Marion hit a bunch of balls, many different times, and got some across the chasm.  Maybe the story is 100% accurate, exactly as it stands.  How can we possibly know, and how can anyone be so certain of their belief?  

Amen, brother. This has been my argument with Patrick since the beginning of this thread. We don't know. He believes because the four golfers hit driver in 1956 it proves Hollins couldn't have done it in 1926. My original argument was just because Frost said something took place in 1956 doesn't make it true. Frost is an unreliable source. Even conceding all using drivers in 1956 does nothing to prove what did or didn't happen in 1926 (or 1925).

Now Patrick is saying he can prove she didn't hit the shot by having a bunch of us go out and try to replicate the shot. I have no idea what he thinks that will prove -- it doesn't do anything to change all of the unknowns from Hollins shot.

Cheers,
Dan King

Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence.
 --Joseph Wood Krutch

Dan, lots of posters in this thread seem to have concluded that Marion definitely hit the shot.  Pat, of course, doesn't seem to grant her the possibility. 

You said steel shafts were made legal in 1925.  Can you give me a source on that?  I ask because I saw a number of Internet sites say steel wasn't legal in the U.S. till 1926, and in Britain till 1929.  These sites don't cite any authority for that.  They also make it sound like steel was rare in the early to mid-20s, only really catching on later in that decade and taking over in the 1930s. 

Curious - did Bobby Jones play steel in 1930? 

[Dan King]

Jim Nugent writes:
Dan, lots of posters in this thread seem to have concluded that Marion definitely hit the shot.

Can you give a for instance? I haven't seen anyone make that argument but I'm guessing I haven't read every post in this thread.

You said steel shafts were made legal in 1925.  Can you give me a source on that?

Jeffrey Ellis' The Clubmaker's Art page 499. He references (United States Golf Association Year Book 1925, 255). He also said Willie Macfarlane won the U.S. Open in 1925 used steel shaft woods. I'll look around my library for Chapman's book and see if it agrees.

They also make it sound like steel was rare in the early to mid-20s, only really catching on later in that decade and taking over in the 1930s.

But Marion Hollins was a rich, well connected woman. I have no doubt had she wanted steel shafts, even if rare, she could have steel shafts. It doesn't prove she had them or not. It just doesn't allow for the story that she couldn't have reached the other side because her shafts were hickory.

And I'm not sure that would be all that valid of an argument. All things being equal: Does a steel shaft result in a longer shot than a good hickory shaft?

Curious - did Bobby Jones play steel in 1930? 

I thought I remember Bobby Jones in 1930 being the last hurrah for hickory shafts -- but I don't remember where I read it.

Cheers,
Dan King

It gave ye a good swing there, Ah could see. But tha' is just another kind 'o magic -- Seamus's magic. 'Tis no different from the magic o' science and steel-shafted clubs, just another kind. Tha' is why he will na' let me try it on the links heer. Says it's just another diversion. O' course, the members might na' let me use it either.
 --Shivas Irons (Golf in the Kingdom)

[Mike Hamilton]

The beauty of the DG is that only here would a score of grown men argue over the course of 4 days and 5 pages the ability of a long dead and not so terribly attractive women to hit a golf ball 200+ yards 85 years ago.  What a great place!

With all due respect Pat, I think the failure of the argument is Harvie/Ken/Ben/Byron could only hit drivers 220 yards.  I have to believe each of these men in the prime could hit well over 250+ under normal circumstances.  Whether Frost's account is true or not seems irrelevent.  To cite an example of another great golf shot in history...to set up his famous eagle at the 15th at Augusta, Gene Sarazen (all 5ft 5in of him) reportable hit driver 250 yards in 1935.

If Gene could drive the ball 250 yards in 1935, I have to believe an accomplished women golfer who could probably kick his tail in a street fight could manage 200-220.

The story may be myth, but I have to believe there were a few women who could carry it 200 yards.

As for your little wager...if you set it up and I get to warm up on holes 1-15, I'm in.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan, what did Nelson shoot that day ?
Really,  what did HOGAN and NELSON shoot that day ?

They were playing match play. Did they both finish every hole?
Probably not, but, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have shot the same scores

Does shooting a really good score on a single day not in competition in match play make you better than players that shoot less of a score in competition in medal play?

If you think that Hogan and Nelson weren't being ferociously competitive, you're kidding yourself.
There's not a PGA Tour Pro that wants to get beat by hotshot amateurs, especially Hogan and Nelson.
You can bet that they were playing at their highest level

Dan, what do you mean that you never heard that she hit from the championship tees.
One account says she hit three balls from 220, another that she hit a brassie from 220-230
You don't think those were the Lady's or Senior tees do you ?

From Alister MacKenzie's The Spirit of St. Andrews pg 135:
"It was suggested to her by the late Seth Raynor that it was a pity the carry over the ocean was too long to enable a hole to be designed on this particular site. Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove to the middle of the site of the suggested green."

I think it's safe to say that Raynor had a fairly good understanding of distance and the golfer's abilities.
Which leads me to doubt the story even more.

But, here's the hole, if she didn't tee off from the current back tee, where did she tee off from that would force the carry over the chasm ?



If it is some story other than MacKenzie's whose story are you trying to debunk?
If it was the  silly one you read on the internet that claimed Hollins was the owner of the property then there are much better ways to debunk that story.

It's NOT MacKenzie's story.
He's just repeating what he's heard, not what he witnessed

Do you know which shaft Marion Hollins was using ?  Or, are you just making an assumption to help your case

I made no assumption. I am saying according to Jeffrey Ellis metal shafts were becoming fairly popular by 1926. Again, I'm not debunking the story, I'm telling you that you have failed to debunk the story.

Others say that the steel shaft wasn't introduced in America until 1925, including David Nicholls.
"Steel shafts were introduced in the US in around 1925, and became standard everywhere from the mid 1930s, as they did not break like hickory shafts and could be produced reliably with uniform feel in matched sets. "  Thus, it's highly unlikely that she was using steel shafts, especially when you consider that the alleged shots were probably taken in 1925 or earlier

True temper shafts for one.

Jeffrey Ellis page 150:
Robert Crowley applied for the true temper shaft patent in 1922 and it was granted on July 6, 1926.
Do you know if Hollins did not use the existing true temper shafts?


Yes, I'd bet on it.
Since Raynor DIED on January 23, 1926 we know she wasn't using clubs patented on July 6, 1926, roughly six months afer his death.
And, since Raynor DIED on January 23, 1926, the alleged event probably took place in 1925 or earlier ?  ? ?
Which would diminish the possibility that steel shafts were employed.
Stepped shafts for another

Makes the shaft stronger, does it enable the golfer to hit the ball farther?

YES, and more accurately

Inserts for another

According to Ellis, there were inserts in clubs made in the 1920s.

Which make and model ?

In the 1920s Hollins was a rich and well-known woman. She would have had no trouble getting top-of-the-line golf clubs.

Very good golfers ?  You're kidding and trying to diminish their abilities

I don't believe so. Are you denying the four of them were very good golfers?

Yes, they weren't good, they were GREAT

They were not the best golfers in the world in 1956. They were really damn good, but not the best.

Are you still insisting I have claimed the Hollins story is true or from your silence do I assume you admit you were wrong about my position?  

Your position does everything it can to dismiss the events of 01-11-56 and champion the event of 1925/6

To say you're neutral would be incorrect

Cheers,
Dan King

There was not a missed shot in the whole round. It seems we were tying ever hole with birdies [Only three holes were halved with pars, the first, eleventh and fourteenth].
 --Ken Venturi (on the 1956 match between amateurs Venturi and Ward against legends Hogan and Nelson at Cypress Point)

At the begining of your reply you question the scores shot by the participants, NOW, you're citing Venturi who claims that NOT a shot was missed, reaffirming what I maintained about the quality of golf shot that day.
Thanks for the assist