Cypress Point - The Marion Hollins's shots on the 16th

[Patrick_Mucci]

You claim an essentially windless day. Pat hit 3 iron on the comparable day. Is the logic hitting you yet?
At the time, Pat was on the PGA Tour.  Now you're going to compare the ball, equipment and a female golfer in 1926 with the ball, equipment and a PGA Tour Pro who's driving distance averaged 286 yards.  Do you see the idiocy of your logic yet ?  

He hit the green with driver in a gale. Is the logic hitting you yet?

He also hit several drivers without a wind.  Do you seel the idiocy of your logic yet ?

He was short on a mishit driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?

Let's see, a PGA Tour Professional mishits his drive, but you want us to believe that a 34 year old female amateur pured three tee shots 220 yards to the center of the green.  Do you see the idiocy of your logic yet

He was over the green with with driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?

He was a PGA TOUR Professional at the time who averaged 286 yards on his drives, and he just hit it over the green on his SECOND shot,
It was 74 years after the Hollins myth in 1926

Do you think she would have been a regular on the PGA Tour in 1980 ?

Do you see the idiocy of your logic yet.

Pat,

You are a great story teller, but my advice to you is to not make a claim to being a logician.

Let's start with a simple question.

Have you ever played the hole ?

I have, and I've used driver, and if I didn't pure it, I wouldn't have made the carry.

I did have a hole in one on the 10th hole at Sherwood, from the back tee which I think is about 350 yards.  
Now I'm sure that you'll insist that Marion Hollins was much longer than me, but, that would be delusional on your part..  
With 19 holes in one, I think you could make the case that I was a decent iron player as well.
But, I'm sure you'll tell me that Marion Hollins was a much better ball striker than me, even with balls and equipment circa 1926

If Venturi, Hogan, Ward and Nelson hit driver, do you think that she played a game equal to theirs ?
And do you think she played that equivalent game with balls and equipment from 1926 ?

Your logic is  so flawed it's beyond absurd

And, you can't produce one shred of evidence confirming that she actually made those shots from 220 yards

[Jim_Kennedy]

In an opening-day event for the newly minted Casa Del Ray Links in Santa Cruz, Ca., two big hitters won their respective long-driver competitions: 

".....Vincent Whitney won the long driving contest with a ball that was near the 275-yard mark, and soft ground at that, and no wind..... Miss Warner winning the long driving contest with a ball past the 200-yard post."

CDR opened in 1912.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thats a solid looking swing from those two pictures.  From the looks of it, I can't imagine her having a problem reaching the green.

Mark

Mark,

I have a friend who has a spectacular swing, absolutely classic.
To see it, you'd think he'd eat up every course and opponent.
There's only one problem.
He's a powder puff and can't hit the ball very far.

Now I realize that MH hit the ball well, but, now you and those other morons are going to tell me that you can gleen how far someone hit a particular shot by just looking at totally different photos of her swing, from the top of their swing and another photo at the finish ?

You could make a fortune in the teaching department.

Just have golfers send you still photos of the top of their swing and another photo from a different swing at the finish and you can analyze how far they hit the ball.

YIKES

How many times have we watched TV and seen what looked like a perfect swing, start to finish, only to see the ball go short in a pond or OB.

Please stop looking for desperate excuses and look at the physics, measurements and facts.

Thanks

[Joe Bausch]

I wonder if Seinfeld got the inspiration for the "man hands" episode from Miss Hollins.  

Check out those paws on Marion in 1920:

[Garland Bayley]

Let's now work on your reading comprehension.

You claim an essentially windless day. Pat hit 3 iron on the comparable day. Is the logic hitting you yet?
At the time, Pat was on the PGA Tour.  Now you're going to compare the ball, equipment and a female golfer in 1926 with the ball, equipment and a PGA Tour Pro who's driving distance averaged 286 yards.  Do you see the idiocy of your logic yet ?  

Your above statement is false due to not comprehending what you read.

He hit the green with driver in a gale. Is the logic hitting you yet?

He also hit several drivers without a wind.  Do you seel the idiocy of your logic yet ?

What post did you read that in?

He was short on a mishit driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?

Let's see, a PGA Tour Professional mishits his drive, but you want us to believe that a 34 year old female amateur pured three tee shots 220 yards to the center of the green.  Do you see the idiocy of your logic yet

Your above statement is false due to not comprehending what you read.

He was over the green with with driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?

He was a PGA TOUR Professional at the time who averaged 286 yards on his drives, and he just hit it over the green on his SECOND shot,
It was 74 years after the Hollins myth in 1926

Your above statement is false due to not comprehending what you read.

Do you think she would have been a regular on the PGA Tour in 1980 ?

Do you see the idiocy of your logic yet.

Pat,

You are a great story teller, but my advice to you is to not make a claim to being a logician.

Let's start with a simple question.

Have you ever played the hole ?

I have, and I've used driver, and if I didn't pure it, I wouldn't have made the carry.

I did have a hole in one on the 10th hole at Sherwood, from the back tee which I think is about 350 yards.  
Now I'm sure that you'll insist that Marion Hollins was much longer than me, but, that would be delusional on your part..  
With 19 holes in one, I think you could make the case that I was a decent iron player as well.
But, I'm sure you'll tell me that Marion Hollins was a much better ball striker than me, even with balls and equipment circa 1926

If Venturi, Hogan, Ward and Nelson hit driver, do you think that she played a game equal to theirs ?
And do you think she played that equivalent game with balls and equipment from 1926 ?

Your logic is  so flawed it's beyond absurd

And, you can't produce one shred of evidence confirming that she actually made those shots from 220 yards

[Mark McKeever]

Eeesh.   Sorry for commenting on the thread.

Mark

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ms. Cecil Leitch could pound it. From 1921:

In her early teens when we first met her she already had a country wide reputation for exceptional hitting from the tee. A sample of driving power can best be noted when the shot is against the wind. To drive consistently for thirty-six holes and average in cross winds and grievous adverse currents one hundred and eighty-five yards has been done many a time by the British champion, and, to our way of thinking, can be done by no other woman golfer. And with the wind, or on a still day, there are yearly records going back to 1911 with drives of 250 yards. In fact these no longer comment when made by Miss Leitch. Her iron shots are of prodigious length compared with the average woman golfer. She gets distance becauses he can safely rely upon the application of power, showing plainly in her sturdy forearms. If the two champions meet in action—and every golfer in the world would "seed" the draw to bring this about, if such were possible,—Miss Stirling will be constantly out driven by about fifteen to twenty yards.

[Michael Moore]

The question is, who started the myth and why?

Pat -

The purpose of this bit of folklore should be fairly obvious. It exists to answer the questions that everyone who stood on that tee in the early days must have asked - "Why did they put this hole here? How am I ever going to make this carry?"

Asking "who started" this story is nonsensical - folklore is collective by definition.

[Jim_Kennedy]

An interesting match between Bobby Jones and Glenna Collett, showing Collett to be a very long driver of the ball.    
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1929/ag325h.pdf

an excerpt:

The fourteenth is four hundred and sixty-five yards with a downhill drive; a par 5 on the regular card, and a par 4 in tournament scoring, due to the falling terrain, though the second shot goes to a higher level and is a very tough problem. Here Bobby was only ten yards ahead on the drive and was well on the green with his second, Glenna getting a big swing on her spoon shot and finishing hole-high but well off to the left, whence she played a pretty pitch over a dangerous bunker and halved in 5 when Bobby again treated himself to three putts.

[Brian Phillips]

Pat,

We don't want the truth....we cannot handle the truth!

Don't spoil such a good story....

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
but you want us to believe that a 34 year old female amateur pured three tee shots 220 yards to the center of the green.

There was no green. There was no tee. We have no idea from where to where she hit. The story is she cleared the chasm to somewhere on the other side.

Do you understand it is easier to hit a long drive with no target than with a target?

If Venturi, Hogan, Ward and Nelson hit driver, do you think that she played a game equal to theirs ?

Come on Pat, now you are grasping at straws. Does any single shot or combination of shots make you the equal of another golfer who hit similar shots?
 
And do you think she played that equivalent game with balls and equipment from 1926 ?

You mean the balls Hogan/Nelson/Venturi and Ward would have been breaking USGA rules had they used them in 1956?

I didn't see you answer this question: Which ball would you choose if faced with a shot to cross a chasm -- with no concern for a target?

Cheers,
Dan King

It's like replacing Bo Derek with Roseanne Barr.
 --Johnny Miller (on Poppy Hills replacing Cypress Point as part of the home for the AT&T Pro-Am)

[Scott McWethy]

I was just on Twitter and Marion Hollins has tweeted that she did hit the infamous 16th green at CPC back in 1926 with a driver.  She also said that she has Bieber Fever, whatever that means.  I guess the debate is over gentlemen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
but you want us to believe that a 34 year old female amateur pured three tee shots 220 yards to the center of the green.

There was no green. There was no tee. We have no idea from where to where she hit. The story is she cleared the chasm to somewhere on the other side.

That's NOT true.
The myth states that she hit those three balls to the middle of where the current green sits.

Do you understand it is easier to hit a long drive with no target than with a target?

She obviously had a target in mind, and drilled three balls right in the middle of it.

If Venturi, Hogan, Ward and Nelson hit driver, do you think that she played a game equal to theirs ?

Come on Pat, now you are grasping at straws. Does any single shot or combination of shots make you the equal of another golfer who hit similar shots?

Venturi, Hogan, Nelson and Ward couldn't put all four balls on the green, yet Marion managed to hit all three of her balls to the middle of the green
 
And do you think she played that equivalent game with balls and equipment from 1926 ?

You mean the balls Hogan/Nelson/Venturi and Ward would have been breaking USGA rules had they used them in 1956?

Right, along with those inferior clubs that HOGAN, NELSON, VENTURI and WARD were playing
Hollins's clubs had to be far superior despite being vintage 1926 versus state of the art 1956
Did Hollins have her own club and ball company like Hogan ?
Or her own testing machine, the IRON HOLLINS at USGA headquarters.

Please, you're a smart guy, stop trying to dismantle the facts surrounding 01-11-56 and start questioning the alleged events of 1926

I didn't see you answer this question: Which ball would you choose if faced with a shot to cross a chasm -- with no concern for a target?
I'll take the I&B from 1956 versus the I&B from 1926 EVERY time.

Don't forget she didn't throw the ball she used clubs

Cheers

[Marty Bonnar]

Don't really know what the big deal is. I drove the thing even with my severely sphincter-tightened backswing. I'd bet Marion could thrash me at Golf, Arm-wrestling, Crochet and Macrame.

FBD.

[Garland Bayley]

Pat,

What "myth" are you trying to disprove? Can you site a written source of the "myth" you are trying to disprove?

Others have cited and quoted the fact they believe, i.e., "Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove it to the middle of the site for the suggested green." from MacKenzie's book.

Are you trying to disprove that statement also?

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
The myth states that she hit those three balls to the middle of where the current green sits.

But didn't sit at the time.

Please, you're a smart guy, stop trying to dismantle the facts surrounding 01-11-56

I only responded to this post because it bugs me to see people using Frost's books as historical data. He can not be trusted.

start questioning the alleged events of 1926

I haven't seen any reason to question the events of 1926. You have said because four very good golfers hit the green in 1956 that means a very good golfer in 1926 could not have possibly done it. I don't buy that. You are taking two very dissimilar events and saying the one disproves the other without drawing any connection between the two events.

Similarities:
All of the golfers hit over the same chasm.
All of the golfers hit a driving wood.

Dissimilarities:
30 years.
No tee or green for the earlier shot.
1.62 v. 1.68 ball.
30 year improvement in driving woods.
Woman v. Man
Competition v. hitting balls.

Unknown:
Weather condition
Teeing area in 1926
Flight path.

You seem to believe that Raynor/MacKenzie built a par-3 hole in the 1920s that nobody in that era could reach. Or is it your position that the Cypress men membership could reach it but not a woman even if she was one of the longest women golfers of her era?

Why would Raynor/Mackenzie build a golf hole that nobody could reach for 30 years?

Cheers,
Dan King

That "I don't give a darn" attitude is probably why I've shot so many good final rounds over the years when I started the day a few shots behind with nothing to lose. . . and maybe that's why I've shot so many bad last rounds when I was ahead and knew I couldn't afford a mistake.
 --Jack Nicklaus

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

What "myth" are you trying to disprove? Can you site a written source of the "myth" you are trying to disprove?

Sure.
There's NO documented evidence of the alleged fete
Not one witness who recorded the event.
Not one citation by Hollins or Raynor.
I'd say that qualifies the alleged fete as a myth.

Others have cited and quoted the fact they believe, i.e., "Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove it to the middle of the site for the suggested green." from MacKenzie's book.

That's nothing more than unsubstantiated third party hearsay recorded six to eight years subsequent to the alleged event.  

Are you trying to disprove that statement also?

No, the statement is on page 135. ,it's the veracity of the statement that's in question.

Do you have a single shred of concrete evidence from witnesses to the event, that verify the event ?  Yes or NO ?"

There were hundreds of witnesses to the events of 01-11-56, but NOT ONE SINGLE witness to the alleged event in 1926.

Yet, you continue to champion an alleged event that has NO basis in documented fact.
Why is that ?
Let me guess, you just want to win just one argument with me.
Going 0 for 100 has warped your ability to reason like a prudent man.

HAVE YOU PLAYED THE 16TH HOLE AT CPC ?  Yes or NO ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

We don't want the truth....we cannot handle the truth!

Don't spoil such a good story....

Brian,

You're right and I should know better.

What I'm surprised by is how some, especially those who have never played the hole, are adamantly clinging to the authenticity of an  undocumented event, especially in light of the nature of the equipment in 1926 and the talent of the four participants on 01-11-56, along with the experiences of Pat Burke, Jeff Dawson, myself and others

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
The myth states that she hit those three balls to the middle of where the current green sits.

But didn't sit at the time.
It did in her mind, according to the myth

Please, you're a smart guy, stop trying to dismantle the facts surrounding 01-11-56

I only responded to this post because it bugs me to see people using Frost's books as historical data. He can not be trusted.
I can't speak to whether he can be trusted or not, but, Jeff Dawson independently confirmed the events of 01-11-56 with Venturi and Ward and I had a similar conversation with Venturi.  Hence, there's not a doubt in my mind with respect to their club selection that day.

start questioning the alleged events of 1926

I haven't seen any reason to question the events of 1926. You have said because four very good golfers hit the green in 1956 that means a very good golfer in 1926 could not have possibly done it.

That's not what I said.
I said that four of the greatest golfers in the WORLD had to use drivers in 1956, but, we're to believe that a female amateur golfer in 1926, spontaneously plopped down three balls and hit them dead center 220 yards away.

I don't buy that. You are taking two very dissimilar events and saying the one disproves the other without drawing any connection between the two events.

Dan, c'mon.
Four WORLD class PGA Tour Golfers in 1956 with state of the art equipment and balls versus an amateur woman golfer in 1926 with equipment from 1926

Similarities:
All of the golfers hit over the same chasm.
All of the golfers hit a driving wood.
Well, that's in question because we have another account that says she hit a brassie (2-wood)

Dissimilarities:
30 years.
No tee or green for the earlier shot.
1.62 v. 1.68 ball.
30 year improvement in driving woods.
Woman v. Man
Competition v. hitting balls.

Unknown:
Weather condition
Teeing area in 1926
Flight path.

You seem to believe that Raynor/MacKenzie built a par-3 hole in the 1920s that nobody in that era could reach.
That's your conclusion, not mine

Or is it your position that the Cypress men membership could reach it but not a woman even if she was one of the longest women golfers of her era?
That's not my position

Why would Raynor/Mackenzie build a golf hole that nobody could reach for 30 years?

Who said nobody could reach it ?

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan, c'mon.
Four WORLD class PGA Tour Golfers in 1956 with state of the art equipment and balls versus an amateur woman golfer in 1926 with equipment from 1926

Nelson was retired, Hogan was semi-retired and Venturi and Ward were not PGA Tour golfers. In this match there was one World class PGA Tour golfer past his prime.

I guess I lost track of your argument. Isn't it your position that Hollins could not have hit the shots that crossed the chasm and reached the middle of what would eventually be the green because she lacked the swing and equipment to do it?

Wouldn't have the Cypress membership be using swings either similar or not as good and equipment either similar or not as good as Hollins?

Do you believe there were Cypress members that could have reached the green when the course opened?

If it had been Hagen instead of Hollins would you be questioning the story? Are you having trouble believing the story because it was a woman that did it?

Cheers,
Dan King

I just hitch up my girdle and let 'er fly.
 --Babe Didrickson Zaharias (explaning her long tee shots)

[Neil_Crafter]

Pat
Where did you get the part that she hit three balls? Is that from Frost? According to Mackenzie, writing in the early 1930s, she hit one ball.
Who do you believe?

[Mike_Clayton]

Either way it is a pity she pulled it off because it would have been an even better hole as a drivable par four.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan, c'mon.
Four WORLD class PGA Tour Golfers in 1956 with state of the art equipment and balls versus an amateur woman golfer in 1926 with equipment from 1926

Nelson was retired, Hogan was semi-retired and Venturi and Ward were not PGA Tour golfers. In this match there was one World class PGA Tour golfer past his prime.

Nelson stopped playing the PGA Tour because he had done it all, he had won over and over and over again.
He didn't stop playing golf.
Hogan wasn't semi-retired.
Nine years later, at age 53, he tied for 15th at the PGA Championship
Venturi and Ward were alreeady world class golfers

I guess I lost track of your argument. Isn't it your position that Hollins could not have hit the shots that crossed the chasm and reached the middle of what would eventually be the green because she lacked the swing and equipment to do it?

The distance, equipment and location are against her in 1926.
Has ANYONE claimed witness to the event ?  Anyone ?

Wouldn't have the Cypress membership be using swings either similar or not as good and equipment either similar or not as good as Hollins?
They'd be playing the more benign tees, not the heroic tees.

Do you believe there were Cypress members that could have reached the green when the course opened?
I don't know who the members were, but, generally, NO, I don't think the membership could reach the green in one shot from that tee.

If it had been Hagen instead of Hollins would you be questioning the story?
In 1926, YES

Are you having trouble believing the story because it was a woman that did it?
I'm having trouble because NO ONE witnessed it.

It's a heroic carry, it's oceanside air, it was I&B circa 1926 and it was a woman amateur

[Patrick_Mucci]

Where did you get the part that she hit three balls?
Is that from Frost?
According to Mackenzie, writing in the early 1930s, she hit one ball.
Who do you believe?

I don't believe any of it.

Here's another version.

In 1928, she hired MacKenzie to sculpt a spur of land she owned near Pebble Beach. MacKenzie's plans for Cypress Point left out the now-famous 16th hole. Dr. Mac was dying to create the killer par-3 that now adorns golf calendars around the world, but he thought that the tee shot, which called for a long, brutal carry over the roiling Pacific, would be too hard. It would have to be a par-4. The owner disagreed. Miss Hollins wanted MacKenzie to build the hole he had imagined. Walking the seaside bluffs one day, she dropped a ball. She swung her brassie — a hickory-shafted 2-wood — and smacked the ball 230 yards over the sea to the current site of the green. There's no record of what she said as the first tee shot ever struck at Cypress's 16th hung in the air.

[Neil_Crafter]

Pat
But where did the account of her hitting three balls come from? I know you don't believe any of it but you must have read the thing about three balls somewhere as this differs from Mac's account.

Mike, wonder if Mackenzie was left alone by Hollins whether he would have laid it out as that short par 4 you describe?