Cypress Point - The Marion Hollins's shots on the 16th

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, who is your source for the 1956 info?  If it is Frost, do you realize the guy writes fiction?

Dan, good to see  you back posting again.  BUT,

Why is EVERYTHING Frost writes deemed "fiction" yet, the account of Marion Hollins's shots deemed "fact" ?
The number of witnesses on Jan 11, 1956 is exponentially greater than those circa 1926.
We don't even know if the 1926 event ever occured.  There were no third party witnesses
We do know that the 1956 event occured and what the conditions were.
There were hundreds, if not thousands of witnesses.

I think you are too easily discounting the 1.62 ball. I've hit the smaller ball a few times and it does generally fly further and lower, and into any sort of wind is a better choice.

Dan, you indicate that the 1.62 ball flies lower, however, we know that carry requires elevated trajectory, something the small ball was NOT good at.  That's why the "One Ball" rule came into effect, because golfers were selecting a ball for play on a given hole based upon whether they needed to "balloon" the ball downwind, or hit a lower trajectory shot into the wind/crosswind.

What I find absurd about some of the replies is the inference that the I&B in 1926 were superior to those in succeeding years.
If that was the case, why didn't golfers retain their 1926 I&B's, effectively discarding I&B issued subsequently.

I have also played the small ball, extensively, compared to others replying on this thread.  Downwind it was LESS effective.
It's claim to fame was the reduced influence the wind had on it, keeping it low, on the deck with a little more distance into a wind/crosswind.

[Carl Nichols]

Patrick-
Is that the average or the highest recorded gust? And where are/were those recordings taken?

[JESII]

Pat,

Are you saying that those four guys needed their drivers to hit the ball 220 yards with 1.8 knots of wind in their faces?

Oh wait, I just went and looked again...Hogan was in front of the green. Should we give him 205?

You're using a fiction novel for your source, and all you can do is say there were hundreds if not thousands of people at the event. I'm sure there were, unfortunately your source wasn't one of them.

On its own, with no relation to the events of 1956, why is it so impossible for a long hitting female golfer to hit the ball over 200 yards in the air in 1926? Just one ball...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick-
Is that the average or the highest recorded gust? And where are/were those recordings taken?

Carl,

Would you like the wind velocity as their foursome approached the tee, upon leaving the tee, as each golfer teed his ball up, as each golfer struck his ball, at the ball's mid-point to the green, or as it landed on the green.

Stop being ridiculous.

[Dan King]

Patrick Mucci writes:
Dan, good to see  you back posting again.

Thanks. I still check in. I just feel like I've run out of things to say.

BUT,

Why is EVERYTHING Frost writes deemed "fiction" yet, the account of Marion Hollins's shots deemed "fact" ?

I don't think I made any comment on Hollin's shots. My problem is you are using an unreliable source to disprove something. Let us know if you have a better, more reliable source. If Frost lacks information -- he makes it up. I have no idea if this is one of those times Frost is making up stuff or if he got the info from a reliable source. He fails to tell us what he makes up and what he gets from sources.

It's possible the Hollins story is a myth. But you are going to have to come up with better reason to doubt it than a fiction writer writing about an unrelated event.

The number of witnesses on Jan 11, 1956 is exponentially greater than those circa 1926.

It really doesn't matter how many people were there if you are relying on the word of someone who makes stuff up. You, me and Frost all were not there.

We don't even know if the 1926 event ever occured.  There were no third party witnesses

It's possible it didn't. Just like many things from the past we are left with sources that might not be entirely reliable.

We do know that the 1956 event occured and what the conditions were.
There were hundreds, if not thousands of witnesses.

And what did the witnesses see?

I have also played the small ball, extensively, compared to others replying on this thread.  Downwind it was LESS effective.
It's claim to fame was the reduced influence the wind had on it, keeping it low, on the deck with a little more distance into a wind/crosswind.

It didn't need to be effective. It just needed to get across. If you need to get across a couple hundred-yard chasm with no worried about a target which ball would you want to use? I'd pick the 1.62.

Hollins could whack away with no concerns about target. All she had to do was clear a hurdle. A bit different from what was happening in 1956.

Is it your position that no women golfers in the 1920s that could hit a ball 200 yards in the air?

Cheers,
Dan King

We played all our competitions off men's tees. We played country matches off men's tees, we played our county championship off men's tees, we played our championships off of men's tees. What do they do now? They play from the up women's tees. Today they say, 'Oh, we can't make it too tough, otherwise people won't want to play.' It's easy to drop standards and it's hellish hard to get them up.
 --Enid Wilson

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Are you saying that those four guys needed their drivers to hit the ball 220 yards with 1.8 knots of wind in their faces?

Jim, I can't tell you what the wind velocity was at the moment of impact for each of the four golfers, but, on January 11, 1956 at a nearby weather station, 1.8 knots was the average wind speed for the day.

Oh wait, I just went and looked again...Hogan was in front of the green. Should we give him 205?

He was thirty feet away, so 210-212 would seem appropriate.

Have you ever played the hole ?
Are you aware of the effect of the sea spray from the waves crashing into the rocks below the tee ?
The heavy nature of Ocean air.

You're using a fiction novel for your source, and all you can do is say there were hundreds if not thousands of people at the event. I'm sure there were, unfortunately your source wasn't one of them.

Why do you categorize the book as a "fictional novel" ?
Frost interviewed Venturi and Nelson, both participants, along with Joey Solis, the caddymaster a witness that day, along with others.

Are Venturi and Nelson liars ?

In 1991 I spoke to Nelson for about a half an hour about this match and a number of topics when just the two of us were alone in the USGA Library in Far Hills

I also spoke to Venturi about Eddie Lowery, the match at CPC, ANGC, The Masters and other topics a number of years ago.[/color]

On its own, with no relation to the events of 1956, why is it so impossible for a long hitting female golfer to hit the ball over 200 yards in the air in 1926?  

Have you played the hole ?

We're talking about three (3) 220 yard shots, with at least a 200 yard carry, in heavy air, with I&B from 1926.

That's a feat that Venturi couldn't duplicate on 01-11-56.

In 1979, my first trip to CPC, I hit driver both times and just made the front putting surface.
In 1979 I played in the US Am, so I was a fairly decent golfer even at the age of 37, only three years older than Marion.
However, I was also playing other sports, including full court basketball in a league, hockey in a league and football in a league, along with Karate in my spare time, so I was reasonably fit from an athletic perspective

Why are you and others so anxious to embrace the Marion Hollins myth and reject the events of 01-11-56 ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan King,

Not just in the air, but in the ocean air, with sea spray added to the mix.

For all those who think a carry of 200 yards is no big deal, just take an old club, a really old club, circa 1926 and try to do it with today's golf ball.

Then, try it in heavy ocean air.

Then, factor in the 1926 swing, where the right elbow is tight to the body reducing the arc.

Then add in that super ball from 1926, the one that everybody is saying was so hot.

If it was so hot, why didn't it survive.

In addition, in 1926 there were many balls, so which brand did she use ?
And, Did she use Old balls, new balls, used balls ?

How can you attribute perfect conditions and execution to everything she allegedly did that day.

And, why isn't the same burden of proof being required of Hollins's alleged shots ?

[Sven Nilsen]

It seems that Mr. Mucci is unwilling to admit that Marion Hollins might have been a longer player than he ever was.  Pat you shouldn't take it so hard, by all accounts she stood 7'4" and could fell an ox with a single blow.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F30D14F6345E13738DDDAE0894DE405B838DF1D3

http://chestofbooks.com/sports/golf/Golf-For-Women/The-Length-Of-The-Back-Swing.html

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Not just in the air, but in the ocean air, with sea spray added to the mix.

Sea spray? Seriously? I've played Cypress a few times in my life. I don't ever remember getting hit by sea spray.

Then add in that super ball from 1926, the one that everybody is saying was so hot.

If it was so hot, why didn't it survive.

It was outlawed by the USGA. When balls are outlawed only outlaws will have balls.

Hollins 1926 swing was probably more sound than mine and I've cleared it with an iron -- granted a modern iron and a modern ball.

And, why isn't the same burden of proof being required of Hollins's alleged shots ?

I've made no claim for Hollins.

I'm sick of all this crap about today's baseball players not being as tough as the players of a different era. Lets not forget, Mighty Casey has struck out. What a choker. And how come they haven't even come close to pitching a fastball as fast as Sid Finch? Lincecum and Holliday don't even come close to Finch's 168 mph fastball.

I don't have my books here with me, but I believe it was Freddie Tait(?) who supposedly drove the 13th green at TOC, with 250 yards on the fly, using a feathery. His Dad, a professor at ST. Andrews calculated the farthest the ball could travel was 220 until his son proved him wrong.

You want to use professional golfers at the Open to disprove Tait's accomplishment?

Cheers,
Dan King

"I'm standing in there to give this guy a target, just waving the bat once or twice out over the plate. He starts his windup. He sways way back, like Juan Marichal, this hiking boot comes clomping over—I thought maybe he was wearing it for balance or something—and he suddenly rears upright like a catapult. The ball is launched from an arm completely straight up and stiff. Before you can blink, the ball is in the catcher's mitt. You hear it crack, and then there's this little bleat from Reynolds."
 --John Christensen (via George Plimpton)

[Kevin_Reilly]

Pat Mucci -- what is your source for Venturi's and Ward's club selections on the 16th?  Frost goes into great detail about the choice of driver for Hogan and Nelson, but he is silent on the club choice of the other two.  There is a reference to Venturi's "drive" (a strange word choice for a shot on a par 3), but one can hit a drive without a driver, can't one?

[Dan King]

Oops, my mistake. It wouldn't have been a feathery with young Mr. Tait. It would have been the gutty.

Cheers,
Dan King

Bah, That thing'll never flee.
 --Allan Robertson (on hitting a gutty ball for the first time)

[Charlie Goerges]

What is the source of the "3 balls" story? Where was it published and/or what is its provenance?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

In 1985, I hit a MacGregor persimmon 3 wood, steel shaft, balata ball that landed, had no roll and was 5 feet short of the green.  I am not long.  Marion's shot was very possible.
Have you looked at a lot of pictures of her?  With her background, I have no doubt that she had good technique and probably went after it pretty hard.  I heard Knute Rockne offered her a position at linebacker if she cut her hair.

[Mike_Duffy]

 ;)Ah, Lynn Shackelford. I STILL carry a MacGregor persimmon 3 wood, with a stiff shaft in my bag. I've had it since 1971. It is my second most treasured golf possession after my Gary Player Black Knight putter (circa 1968).

[Jon Wiggett]

Pat,

I seem to recall that Ben Hogan's driving average in the late 40's was 265 yards so 220 yards with the driver would surgest an into the wind shot. I would suggest that a shot of 220 yards for Marion Hollins was more than realistic given her ability.

Jon,

It's possible, that in Texas, on unirrigated fairways that Hogan, in the late 40's, at age 36 or so, had a total driving distance of 265 yards.
But, it wasn't until much later that golfers discovered that distance was a function of launch angle, trajectory, not a running draw which was a great distance getter prior to irrigated fairways.  The low draw was NOT prone to great carry distances.  Nicklaus was probably the first to hit howitzer like drives.
In 1965, 9 years removed, when Hogan was 52/53 I watched him play in the PGA at Laurel Valley with Ken Venturi.
The previous year, soon after his U.S. Open win, Ken played with my dad at my home club with me tagging along, keenly interested in every shot he hit.

In the 60's, the driving distance between PGA Tour Pros and the better amateurs wasn't that great.
  

Patrick,

it is possible that the distances were taken from his play on the US Tour which was played in other states such as California. I believe Riviera and Pebble Beach might have similar 'HEAVY' air to CPC though having not had the pleasure of playing any of them I would have to bow to your superior experience on you to claim the air was different at CPC the PB. I believe BH also hit a pretty mean ball even before JN's time.

Jon

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, didn't Mackenzie say Hollins did this, in one of his books or articles? 

He recounts the event with Raynor on page 135 of TSOSA, he didn't witness the alleged event, and only recounts.

So besides the points others have made, the alternative is to say that Mackenzie lied. 

Jim,

You can't be that stupid.

If the story/myth was relayed to Dr M, and he repeated it, why would he by lying, irrespective of the authenticity of the story ?

If David Moriarty told you that CBM was responsible for a good deal of what occured at Merion and you repeated that to TEPaul, would you be lying ?

I had thought Mac was there.  Thanks to David Moriarty for pointing up my mistake.  You guys are right, the story doesn't mean much. 

Overall, I think you raised reasonable doubt.  At the same time, the other side is reasonable too.  Without more direct info, seems like a tossup to me. 

[Scott McWethy]

I see Pat's point as it is a story that seems to be larger than life, especially for the day.  However, there has to be a reason that a hole which was originally drawn up as a par four, was later changed to a par three with an extremely long carry over water.  If Hoillins was not able to produce that shot, what do you think was the main reason to change that hole to a par three?  It's not like the hole was a plain 220 yard par three with just flat land in front of it.  It required a massive hit for that time period, so something must have happened to convince the architect to change the 16th to a courageous par three.  If it wasn't Hollins hitting that shot on the green, what do you think was the main reason for changing that hole from a par 4 to a par 3?  I don't have an answer but would be interested in hearing some theories.     

[Jeff Dawson]

For what it is worth........Harvie and I were very good friends.  In fact I am actually in Mark Frost's book and have played CPC with Harvie.  Harvie rarely spoke about the match and only when asked.  He was actually bothered that he and Ken lost.  He felt that he and Ken were better than Hogan and Nelson in 1956.  I do know that the story on how the match came to pass has a little more juice to it, but I am bound to secrecy.  While at Ken's house with Harvie in 2004 they spoke briefly about the match.  I recall Ken suggesting that everyone hit driver on 16.  Harvie said that he and Hogan never hit driver on 16.  He always layed up and would get up and down for par.  Harvie said he hit driver that day because Hogan did and Harvie knew he needed birdie.  Harvie also told me that he always hit his drive on 17 to the right side of the tree where there were just a few paces of fairway.  

[Garland Bayley]

I see Pat's point as it is a story that seems to be larger than life, especially for the day.  However, there has to be a reason that a hole which was originally drawn up as a par four, was later changed to a par three with an extremely long carry over water.  If Hoillins was not able to produce that shot, what do you think was the main reason to change that hole to a par three?  It's not like the hole was a plain 220 yard par three with just flat land in front of it.  It required a massive hit for that time period, so something must have happened to convince the architect to change the 16th to a courageous par three.  If it wasn't Hollins hitting that shot on the green, what do you think was the main reason for changing that hole from a par 4 to a par 3?  I don't have an answer but would be interested in hearing some theories.     

According to Pat's version, Marion failed, so Raynor teed one up and showed it could be done.
 

[Jed Rammell]

I'm with Patrick on this one. The best players in the world are pounding driver hole high in 1956, and I'm to believe that a woman 30 years prior (maybe even wandering around in a dress) carried a ball 220? Sounds like a tall tale to me.

[Carl Nichols]

Patrick-
Is that the average or the highest recorded gust? And where are/were those recordings taken?

Carl,

Would you like the wind velocity as their foursome approached the tee, upon leaving the tee, as each golfer teed his ball up, as each golfer struck his ball, at the ball's mid-point to the green, or as it landed on the green.

Stop being ridiculous.

Patrick:
This was really tongue-in-cheek.  Since relatively little is really known about either event, it's hard to draw any serious conclusions about the 1926 event.

Serious question -- where do you get the data for 1956?

[Garland Bayley]

I'm with Patrick on this one. The best players in the world are pounding driver hole high in 1956, and I'm to believe that a woman 30 years prior (maybe even wandering around in a dress) carried a ball 220? Sounds like a tall tale to me.

None of the best players in the world were pounding driver to reach 220 yards. That's ridiculous! Those guys could reach 220 with a half swing. Pat's insistence on this supposed data from 1956 is pure fantasy.

[Bruce Katona]

While I find it somewhat entertaining debating who hit what club and ball when on a great golf hole, perhaps we could persuade Jeff Dawson to share details of the 1956 match.  The bit of information he offered drew my interest.  I ante up the 1st box of Pro V 1's t be shipped to Jeff if we can twist his arm to share !!

[JMEvensky]

While I find it somewhat entertaining debating who hit what club and ball when on a great golf hole, perhaps we could persuade Jeff Dawson to share details of the 1956 match.  The bit of information he offered drew my interest.  I ante up the 1st box of Pro V 1's t be shipped to Jeff if we can twist his arm to share !!

Agreed.I'll split the ante with you--2 sleeves apiece.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
RTJ Sr. based his changes at Oakland Hills for the '51  Open on this information:  "Recent tests I made during Open Championships proved that the average carry of the entire field is about 240 yards. Better than ten players carry 250 yards and scarcely anyone in the field carries less than 230 yards, illustrating that features outside these limits are of no penal value."

That seems to be several yards longer than the 220 or so needed at Cypress.