Cypress Point - The Marion Hollins's shots on the 16th

[Patrick_Mucci]

Legend had it that Marion Hollins, a terrific golfer and athlete, changed Raynor's thinking regarding the 16th at CPC when he initially planned it as a par 4.

The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.

This allegedly occured in or prior to 1926, when Marion was 34 years of age.

Some on this site insisted that the story is true.

Having played that hole a number of times, starting in 1979, I never believed the story/myth.
I hit driver my first time, I hit it solid and low into the wind and just reached the front of the green.

Think about:
The Ball in 1926
The equipment in 1926
The swing in 1926

Now, fast forward 30 years to January 11, 1956.

A lot had happened in those intervening 30 years in terms of improvements to the ball and equipment.

So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.

First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan.  He hit a driver...... in front of the green

Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson.  He hit a driver...... to six feet

Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi.  He hit a driver....... left of the green

Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward.  He hit a driver....... to five feet.
Ward had previously hit a driver on the hole when he was 7 under par, only to see his round ruined by an 8.

So, the legend would have us believe that Marion Hollins, 30 years earlier, hit the ball as far as Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward.

As an aside, on January 11, 1956, Hogan shot 63, Nelson, 67, Venturi 65 and Ward 67, so it's not as if they were off their games.

Are we to believe that 30 years earlier, with inferior balls and equipment, that Marion Hollins hit THREE balls to the center of the green, a 220 yard shot, a feat that Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward couldn't accomplish amongst themselves ?

Having accompanied Venturi in a match against my dad in 1964, it's beyond belief that Marion Hollins, with equipment of the day (1926), could hit the ball as far as Venturi.  Going a step further, with the equipment of 1926 or 1956 there's NO way that Marion Hollins was a player of Venturi's equal, especially with regard to distance.   The same goes for Ward, Hogan and Nelson.

But, it's a nice fable.

The question is, who started the myth and why ?

 

[Adam Clayman]

Pat, I don't see exactly how you've de-bunked the myth.

Let's say it was 200 yards, not 220. How about if it was downwind? While the examples you gave were into it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I don't see exactly how you've de-bunked the myth.

I presented the facts on 01-11-56.
I presented the alleged facts in 1926.
If you can find fault with the facts or the logic, please tell me how.

Let's say it was 200 yards, not 220.

You CAN'T change the facts just to suit your point of view.
They are what they are, 220 yards, tee to center of green.  222 to be accurate.

How about if it was downwind?
While the examples you gave were into it?


I can't speak to the conditions in 1926, but, There was little if any wind on January 11, 1956.

On the occassions that I've played there, a heroic carry is required, irrespecitive of the wind.
Do you believe that she was more accurate than Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward ?
If you think you could do it with balls and equipment circa 1926, my BETTING WINDOW remains perpetually open

[Ken Moum]

Legend had it that Marion Hollins, a terrific golfer and athlete, changed Raynor's thinking regarding the 16th at CPC when he initially planned it as a par 4.

The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.

This allegedly occured in or prior to 1926, when Marion was 34 years of age.

Some on this site insisted that the story is true.

Mackenzie recounts the story in "The Spirit of St. Andrews" (p 135) so he apparently believed it to be true in 1933, only a few years after it allegedly happened.

Having played that hole a number of times, starting in 1979, I never believed the story/myth.
I hit driver my first time, I hit it solid and low into the wind and just reached the front of the green.

Think about:
The Ball in 1926

-snip-

Now, fast forward 30 years to January 11, 1956.

A lot had happened in those intervening 30 years in terms of improvements to the ball and equipment.

Well, don't forget that prior to 1930, the golf ball was 1.62" in diameter, and that the balls played by the best players were both heavier and hotter than the balls of the years 1931 through today.

Then, in 1942, the USGA again restricted the ball by creating a velocity limit of 250 feet per second.

The one likely "expert" on these matters, Ralph Livingston, has suggested that the ball Jones used in the 1920s was at least as hot as the modern ProV1, and since it was smaller, it was a very hot ball compared to the one that Hogan, Venuri, et. al. hit

So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.

First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan.  He hit a driver...... in front of the green

Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson.  He hit a driver...... to six feet

Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi.  He hit a driver....... left of the green

Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward.  He hit a driver....... to five feet.

So, the legend would have us believe that Marion Hollins, 30 years earlier, hit the ball as far as Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward.

As an aside, on January 11, 1956, Hogan shot 63, Nelson, 67, Venturi 65 and Ward 67, so it's not as if they were off their games.

Are we to believe that 30 years earlier, with inferior balls and equipment, that Marion Hollins hit THREE balls to the center of the green, a 220 yard shot, a feat that Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward couldn't accomplish amongst themselves ?

Mackenzie's version of the story doesn't mention three balls, it says: "Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove it to the middle of the site for the suggested green."

[Mike Benham]

So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.

First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan.  He hit a driver...... in front of the green

Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson.  He hit a driver...... to six feet

Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi.  He hit a driver....... left of the green

Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward.  He hit a driver....... to five feet.
Ward had previously hit a driver on the hole when he was 7 under par, only to see his round ruined by an 8.

Pat -

Who or what is the source of the above information? 

Mike

[Adam Clayman]

Pat, You used the word "alleged" facts. As well as re-counting a myth, I have heard, but never in such detail.

While the hole currently plays were you played it, at 220, do you think it's always been that distance?

Do you know the carry distance, from center of tee to rock wall?

Pre construction, I doubt the landscape was exactly like it is today, so I allege the facts that you've alleged, are not facts. Thats all I'm saying.

[Ken Moum]

So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.

First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan.  He hit a driver...... in front of the green

Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson.  He hit a driver...... to six feet

Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi.  He hit a driver....... left of the green

Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward.  He hit a driver....... to five feet.
Ward had previously hit a driver on the hole when he was 7 under par, only to see his round ruined by an 8.

Pat -

Who or what is the source of the above information? 

Mike

Mark Frost???

Otherwise famous for writing Fantastic Four and Rise of the Silver Surfer and justifiably pilloried here for making up a lot of the details in The Match.

K

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,

From a match between a Mrs. Reymond and Marion Hollins:

"Marion had taken her stance for a brassie second when a train came down the track. Just as she drew back her club, the whistle blew an awful howl, but she came onto that ball with all the force she had and drove it 200 yards up the fairway."

"On No. 17, the longest hole on the course, Mrs. Reymond played the longest drive of the week, 276 yards as paced by Mr. Charles Green, the president of the club."

"On the37th (hole), both girls  (Reymond and Hollins)  played drives well past the two hundred mark."

From another article, 1919:

"Miss Marion Hollins, with not quite such a free swing, but with one that was just as effective,was getting tremendous distance, both from the tee and through the green, so far in fact, that in her match with Miss Beatrice Lounseberry, she had a comparatively simple putt for a 3 on the four hundred and something yard fourteenth hole."

In that same article a Mrs Higby :

  “…won the driving competition with three drives of 230 yards,230 yards and 220 yards. An average of over 225 yards brings her driving very near the average of a first-class man-golfer. In fact, in this respect it seems that the gap between the driving of the women and of the average first-class man has lessened considerably during the last few years, and instead of the seventy to eighty yards that used to exist, it would take a bold man to attempt to give more than thirty yards to some of these young players of the modern school of golf.”

[Michael Moore]

Pat -

Perhaps Hollins hit a few shots that made the 185-yard minimum carry and perhaps she did not attempt this in the dead of winter.

[Garland Bayley]

Pat just can't stand it that there are women out there that can beat him at golf! Say Pat, can you hit it as far as Yani Tseng?
Tooo bad.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick, haven't we had enough discussions about Marion?  

Seriously though . . . after duly laying up to my Isthmus out to the left, I've taken a few swipes at the green with period woods, and I have little doubt that Marion Hollins could have made the carry from the current under the right conditions.  Granted, I used a modern ball, but Miss Hollins would have probably have bested me by enough to make up for any advantage in my ball.  As others noted, the minimum carry is only about 190 yards or a few yards less, and this is comparable to other challenging risk reward carries of that era if not even earlier.  For example, I believe this was about the distance of the carry on the most aggressive line at NGLA's Sahara hole.    

All that said, I am not sure she was hitting from the current tee.  It is not at all clear that the tee is now located in the exact same position as when Miss Hollins was demonstrating the viability of the hole as a par three.  

In fact, the inside cover of Geoff Shackelford's CPC book displays AM's 1926 plan, and the par three tee was substantially left, at about the location of the next tee up, and from there it only measured  207 yards to the center of the green, with the shot traveling right along the shoreline.  Also, as of this plan, the par 4 option was still ther, with two tee locations, one back toward the 15th green (337 yards on the marked lines) and the other up on the hill behind and golfer's left of the current tee (267 yards.)  Here is an approximation of the 1926 plan marked on the aerial.  



This was of course just AM's plan, and doesn't necessarily reflect what Raynor was thinking, but it could be that Miss Hollins was hitting from a bit closer than you hit now.    

[PThomas]

David, how can you ask anyone else about having had enough discussions about anything when you go on and on about Merion and all your other battles?

[Bob_Huntley]

Paul,

Just because David was involved in the most polarizing thread in GCA history, are you saying he should be sent to Coventry and not participate in further debate?

Bob

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat,

In the early and mid -seventies 70's I remember playing thirteen consecutive rounds at CPC and hitting the green with a three wood. Now its a driver toward the tree in the safety zone. I think Hollins, who was built like a Greyhound bus, would have llittle trouble hitting it on.

I am not sure where you got the information on the clubs that were used by Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward, but I would hope it was not from Frost, his book should be listed under "Fiction."

Bob

[DMoriarty]

David, how can you ask anyone else about having had enough discussions about anything when you go on and on about Merion and all your other battles?

It was a joke, and at my expense.   You got the irony, yet missed it too.  Perhaps puns truly are the lowest form of wit.

Anyway, I hope you didn't find the remainder of my post so offensive. 

[Andrew Calcutt]

To those interested,

I think there is great room for doubt in many of the facts.  But it's really hard to argue
with the photograph.

If the wind was in Ms. Hollins face, it is highly unlikely that she carried the ball
220 yards to the green.  But we don't know the wind conditions.  The wind on that
hole could easily make for a three-club difference.

Second, Mark Frost is a good writer, but he takes entertainment-necessary liberties
in filling in story gaps.  If, however, his facts are correct, it is plausible that all four
men hit cuts with their drivers to avoid the water and stop the ball on the green.
And how sure are we that the wind was minimal?  I have my doubts given the location
of the hole, but I don't remember the weather description.

Does the USGS or NOAA or the military have weather reports from the Monterrey Peninsula
on the relevant dates?  How about the San Francisco Chronicle?

Or maybe Hollins was actually a man and liked to cross-dress like J. Edgar Hoover?

We need more information,

Dr. Watson
221b Baker Street

[Bob_Huntley]

See:

http://www.montereygolf.com/architectural-profile/mackenzie-monterey-golf.htm

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, didn't Mackenzie say Hollins did this, in one of his books or articles?  So besides the points others have made, the alternative is to say that Mackenzie lied. 

[DMoriarty]

Bob,  Thanks for that link.

_______________________

Whether Marion Hollins hit the drive or not, she sure had impressive credentials when it came to golf courses.  She was involved in the development of Women's National, Cypress Point Club, Pasatiempo, and Augusta National.  Her father was a founder at NGLA.

Has there been any female like her in modern times?

______________________

Jim Nugent.

AM's was not a first-hand account of the event.

[Garland Bayley]

Laura Davies, can make that shot with a 2 iron. Let's let Marion have her driver, and no doubt she can make the shot.

You have LPGA pros that can wind up and hit it 300 yards. Now take away 25% for equipment. They still make the shot with room to spare.

Patrick, your argument is quite specious, and tiring.

Say hi to your nurse for me, and take a rest.

[Jon Wiggett]

Pat,

I seem to recall that Ben Hogan's driving average in the late 40's was 265 yards so 220 yards with the driver would surgest an into the wind shot. I would suggest that a shot of 220 yards for Marion Hollins was more than realistic given her ability.

Jon

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

There's a great picture of her in mid-swing in the book Creating Classics by Lord and Pugh. When you see the shoulder turn she has, it's not hard to believe she could make the carry. She looks like she could murder the ball.

[TEPaul]

"Has there been any female like her in modern times?"


Who on here has read David Outerbridge's biography of Marion Hollins---"Marion Hollins, a Woman in a Man's World?"


Outerbridge's wife was Marion's niece. About five years ago she told us we could have all the books that were left and were stored in her barn on the farm in Lincolnville, Me. We never made it up there to get them; Cypress Point bought them and they're now for sale in the pro shop.

To say Marion Hollins was an anomaly for a woman athlete is really putting it mildly and golf was not the only sport she was world-class at. The photo of her hitting the first shot at Pasa is a still action study of a backswing that could generate some real power and as Bob H. said she was a very big lady! 

 

[TEPaul]

As for the story of her hitting a ball to the proposed par 3 16th green, the way I tend to look at that is Mackenzie who was a very good friend of Marion's wrote that story in his book in 1933 and apparently Grantland Rice wrote about it too around that time. Marion was certainly still around and would be for a number of years and if it never happened at all I find it pretty hard to believe they would all agree to just tell a total lie like that.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

The photo of her hitting the first shot at Pasa is a still action study of a backswing that could generate some real power and as Bob H. said she was a very big lady! 

TEPaul:

Maybe that's the same picture I'm referring to. It's incredible!