[Adam Clayman]

Pat FWIW, The exact carry distance is 197 yards.

You still have not dis-proven the story. And if it is a story, you'll never be able to.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick Mucci writes:
What proof do you have that Frost, myself and Dawson are in error ?

We know Frost makes stuff up.

Dan, could you and others who have maintained that Frost's writings in "The Match" are fiction Idendify exacly what, SPECIFICALLY did he make up on his account of the match regarding the 16th hole ?




I have no idea if his account of clubs hit and distance from the hole came from a reliable source or from his imagination. Do you know?
Frost says that he spoke to Venturi and Nelson, certainly they must be considered reliable sources


Hard to rely on someone for facts when it has been clearly demonstrated he makes up facts. What is fact, what is fiction? You and I have no idea. You and I have no idea if Frost is in error or not.

That's NOT true.

Jeff Dawson spoke directly to Venturi and Ward who confirmed that they hit driver

I spoke to Venturi long ago and he indicated that he hit driver

I did not see Dawson collaborating your (Frost's?) story. He said some of the 1956 participants hit driver, according to Mr. Ward.
that's also NOT true.  He spoke to BOTH Venturi and Ward and both said that they hit driver and Ward said that normally he wouldn't hit driver, but did that day because HOgan hit driver 

I'd say you are in error. Your error is relying on a fiction author for real facts.

Quite the contrary, we have three independent sources, all corraborating each other.

YOU and others have NOTHING in the way of facts that refute those three accounts.

Yet, you're willing to accept the Marion Hollins myth when NOONE can verify it.
In fact, we can't find anyone who witnessed and recorded the alleged event

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat FWIW, The exact carry distance is 197 yards.

You still have not dis-proven the story. And if it is a story, you'll never be able to.

Adam,

That depends upon your preference for either myths or logic

Can you provide any documentation by a witness certifying Marion Hollins's alleged fete ?

[Adam Clayman]

No, I can't, can you provide any witnesses that saw it never happen?

Logic, that's funny.

[Patrick_Mucci]

No, I can't, can you provide any witnesses that saw it never happen?

Adam,

On one hand, we have an event witnessed by hundreds of people.
In addition, we have confirmation from three (3) of the participants, Nelson, Venturi and Ward.

On the other you don't have one single shred of concrete, confirmed evidence.

Yet, you and others want to reject a factual account in favor of a mythical account.

You're right, where's the logic ?

Logic, that's funny.
Agreed

[Neil_Crafter]

Here's another version of the story from the internet - this time it has her hitting the shot with her brassie rather than a driver. And 230 yards not 220. I suspect there may have been some embellishments over the years..........

In 1928, she hired MacKenzie to sculpt a spur of land she owned near Pebble Beach. MacKenzie's plans for Cypress Point left out the now-famous 16th hole. Dr. Mac was dying to create the killer par-3 that now adorns golf calendars around the world, but he thought that the tee shot, which called for a long, brutal carry over the roiling Pacific, would be too hard. It would have to be a par-4. The owner disagreed. Miss Hollins wanted MacKenzie to build the hole he had imagined. Walking the seaside bluffs one day, she dropped a ball. She swung her brassie — a hickory-shafted 2-wood — and smacked the ball 230 yards over the sea to the current site of the green. There's no record of what she said as the first tee shot ever struck at Cypress's 16th hung in the air. (Maybe, "Hunt, you rubber-coated dog!") What we know is that MacKenzie was convinced. He built a tee box on the spot. "(E)xcept for minor details of construction, I was in no way responsible for the hole," he wrote. "It was largely due to the vision of Miss Marion Hollins."

Are there any other period accounts of this story other than Mackenzie's in Spirit of St Andrews? Mackenzie was a witness to it and I can't see why he would embellish the truth, doesn't seem like he gains out of making such a thing up. Having researched and read a lot about Mackenzie I am inclined to take his word on this one.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Neil,

That account differs from the account that MacKenzie wrote about in his book, "The Spirit of St Andrews"

On page 135 he cites the incident, but, it wasn't MacKenzie who witnessed it, it was Raynor.

Now, your account would have us believe that she dropped a ball on a rugged piece of unprepared land and routinely hit a Brassie (2-wood) 220+ over the chasm to the current location of the green.

It's shear nonsense, but, the stories keep getting better

[Neil_Crafter]

Pat
yes the account differs, which was kind of my point that the story has been embellished in different re-tellings. And it's not my account but just one I plucked at random off the internet.

Same as the one you quoted at the start with three balls. Mackenzie's account talks of only one ball, and doesn't mention the club.

And yes, I was in error with my recollection of the account, Mackenzie did not witness it firsthand as Hollins clearly did it when she was going round the property with Raynor. No doubt it was Hollins who relayed the story to Mackenzie. Do you think either Mackenzie or Hollins were gilding the lily? And if so why? Seems out of character for Hollins to make something like this up, and as it does not build up Mac in any way why would he tell an untruth? Hollins was well and truly alive at the time he wrote the book so she could have easily disproved it if the book had been published at the time it was written.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Patrick, if the wind on the 16th was only 2 mph, then how could the group, standing on the 17th tee, see the flag "waving in the breeze" on the 17th green?  Were the flags at CPC made of some lightweight material that made them so sensitive to puffs of wind approximating 2 mph?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Neil,

Individual circumstances and the chain of events as recounted by the parties don't seem logical to me.

My guess is that Raynor and Hollins engaged in a discussion regarding the 16th hole and whether it should be a par 4 or par 3.

As a result of those discussions I think they ventured out to the site and Hollins indicated that it would make a good par 3 from a tee or tees more benign than the current one located 222 from the current green and that Hollins teed up several balls and played to the site of the current green from a position far to the left of the current back tee.

I think Raynor, seeing that a par 3 could be played from that location/s, incorporated a par 3 into his plans, which I would love to see.

I think MacKenzie, was aware of Raynor's routing and made the hole a par 3 in his design/plan/routing

Dropping a ball onto ground ill prepared for golf and then striking that ball 220 yards across that chasm, with heavy ocean air, with a 2-wood, is beyond believable, except for the cretins who frequent this site.

From there, the story took on proportions commensurate with the "WOW" factor associated with the area

[Dan King]

Patrick Mucci writes:
Dan, could you and others who have maintained that Frost's writings in "The Match" are fiction Idendify exacly what, SPECIFICALLY did he make up on his account of the match regarding the 16th hole ?

No I can't. I've never read the book. I did read about half way through his earlier book. I sent him a list of a couple things that I had never read before just asking him where he got his sources. His only response was that the errors would be fixed in later editions. He didn't reference any material and it was obvious he had made at least some of the stuff up. He is an author that will gladly trade historical facts for a better story and therefore is a fiction writer.

It is entirely possible he is spot on about the Hogan/Nelson/Ward/Venturi match. It is also possible it is 100 percent BS. It isn't something I would rely on.

Frost says that he spoke to Venturi and Nelson, certainly they must be considered reliable sources

Are you sure what he wrote is what they told him? What if what they told him didn't help the story? Frost has shown he has no problem changing the  story to fit his narrative.

Jeff Dawson spoke directly to Venturi and Ward who confirmed that they hit driver

Did they happen to tell you or Dawson how close they were to the hole?

YOU and others have NOTHING in the way of facts that refute those three accounts.

Again, it is possible Frost's account of the Match is based on truth. But it is hard to say if it is or isn't. The fact all four might have hit driver does very little to support Frost's account.

Yet, you're willing to accept the Marion Hollins myth when NOONE can verify it.
In fact, we can't find anyone who witnessed and recorded the alleged event

I have no way of knowing if Hollins story is true or not. I just object to you using a possible fictional account to disprove something that happened 30 years earlier.

There is a story about Christy O'Conner (Himself) playing in an Irish pro-am. After he and the Am hit to a par-3 the Am asked Christy what club he used. Christy responded it was an 8-iron. The Am made a big deal about how he reached the green with a 9-iron. Christy then went and hit the green with every club in the bag.

This story might also be mythical. But it does show that there are many distances pros can hit their clubs (something I find it hard to believe you didn't already know.) For whatever reason Hogan/Nelson/Venturi/Ward all might have chosen driver. We don't know why. There can be a variety of reasons a pro will take extra club. All we know is hitting a drive in 1956 with a 1.68 ball -- from a teeing area to a hole-size target -- has no relationship to hitting a drive in 1926 with the 1.62 ball -- from some unknown spot to just getting across the chasm. You've made a valiant effort trying to create a relationship. Don't be hard on yourself for failing -- it can't be done.

Cheers,
Dan King

The World Cup was founded to generate international goodwill through golf. Friendship and conviviality are therefore supposed to be essential ingredients of the tournament and Christy O'Conner had a powerful talent for friendship and conviviality. Indeed many good judges are convinced that O'Conner's genius for hitting a golf ball would have won him several Open Championships if only nature had endowed him less liberally with the conviviality.
 --Peter Dobereiner

[Pat Burke]

Dan,
Stolen from Dave Hill and his book "TEED OFF"
Love that book!

[Kevin_Reilly]

Dan -- surely Mark Frost was wrong and living in fantasy land like the unmedicated lunatics here on GCA when he recounted the Hollins tale on pgs 173-174, but he was back to being 100% factual (right down to Hogan's nod of satisfaction after hitting his drive on #16 and Ward's cockeyed grin and roll of the eyes after his shot that landed 5 ft from the hole) on pgs 174-176.

As for me, I have my doubts as to whether this dainty petite woman who never married (not that there's anything wrong with that), could have managed to hit the ball a man-like 200+ yds.  Absolutely not possible...

[Dan King]

I love Dave Hill's Teed Off. I'm not a big fan of autobiographies but Hill gets the tone perfectly.

Another good autobiography you would probably enjoy is Gardner Dickinson's Let 'Er Rip. Have you read it?

Cheers,
Dan King

My game is so bad I gotta hire three caddies -- one to talk the left rough, one for the right rough, and one down the middle. And the one down the middle doesn't have much to do.
 --Dave Hill

[Lyne Morrison]

Ah but Kevin  - these ones show not such a bad shoulder turn for a dainty petite woman who never married





I reckon she didnt only make the carry -- she was probably pin high   : )

Cheers, Lyne

[Brian Phillips]

That is one big shoulder turn and one BIG MAMMA....

Look at the size of those tree trunks....I knock it around 250-260 and one of her legs is bigger than my body.

She could easy crack it 260-300 even in 1926.

[Ted Cahill]

These pics of Hollins' swing are compelling enough to me to suggest she could get it out there to hit it on the green at 16. For those who are still skeptical, what explanation would you give for Raynor agreeing to build a 230 yd par 3 in 1928?

[Paul_Turner]

I know Patrick has been a skeptic for a long time about Hollins and the 16th.  But that photo convinces me that it was possible.

[Pete Lavallee]

Pat,

After seeing that photo of Marion at the top of her swing, just how far do you think she could hit the ball in her day? Would you play her for money; how many strokes would you beg for?

[Bruce Katona]

Thanks Jeff.....I just read the blurb....just wetted the whistle like the 1st sip of Jamison's over cracked ice.....

[Garland Bayley]

Please stop with the nonsense.
You have nearby weather stations, none of which are sited on the 16th tee.
But, they are a reliable indication of conditions that day.

Stop being absurd

It is absurd to think any weather station would give an accurate reading of the conditions if it were not actually on site. You could set a weather station within easy sight of my home and it would often read a 30mph difference between the actual wind at my home.

[Garland Bayley]

Played the 1980 Cal Am at Pebble/Cypress.
Weren't allowed practice rounds, so when I got to 16 tried to hit an easy driver (MacGregor w/keyhole insert btw)
Caught it a little thin, hit a couple feet short.
Went ahead an hit one harder, just off the back.  It was cool and into the wind.
Next year, I hit a 3 iron in the center of the green on a cool windless day (60-65 degrees I would guess)

Played AT&T in a gale in 1990 and pummeled the dogwater out of a driver to hit the green (made 5 )

It should be noted that Pat Burke comes from a family of TERRIFIC golfers, including himself, and that he wasn't playing in the 1990 AT&T as an amateur, but, a PGA Tour Professional.

It should also be noted that his Tour Stats indicate that his average drive was 285.8 yards.
Yet, he hit driver on thre of his four plays at # 16.

Is the logic hitting you yet ?

Perhaps Marion Hollins was a longer and better player than Pat and his PGA Tour mates

You claim an essentially windless day. Pat hit 3 iron on the comparable day. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He hit the green with driver in a gale. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He was short on a mishit driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He was over the green with with driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?

Pat,

You are a great story teller, but my advice to you is to not make a claim to being a logician.

[Jim Nugent]

You claim an essentially windless day. Pat hit 3 iron on the comparable day. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He hit the green with driver in a gale. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He was short on a mishit driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He was over the green with with driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?

Pat,

You are a great story teller, but my advice to you is to not make a claim to being a logician.

Actually, many (not all) points Pat made in this thread are good.  Based on Jim Kennedy's post #7, it sounds like Marion hit driver around 220 or 230 yards.  That includes roll.  So IF she had to carry 220...IF the wind did not help her (and may even have been in her face)...considering the typically heavy air near the seaside...and seeing that top men golfers playing better equipment 40 years later hit driver, as confirmed by one of them (Ward)...raises doubt about the story.   

Pat's problem is that Marion may not have needed to cary 220 yards.  195 or so may have done the trick, depending on exactly where she hit from.  He does not know the wind or other weather conditions.  (BTW, Garland, your post before that points up one of the problems with AGWT).  And even if she did need to carry 220, maybe she flushed it and pulled it off anyway.  She certainly was not far from that distance, in any case.   

To me it's a hung jury.  In that photo of her at Pasa, she looks like she is going to murder the ball. 

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

I am trying to understand the point of this thread . . .

Setting aside for a moment the Hollin's legend and the account from "The Match," is your main point that you don't think that Marion Hollins could have driven the green from the current tee?

[Mark McKeever]

Thats a solid looking swing from those two pictures.  From the looks of it, I can't imagine her having a problem reaching the green.

Mark

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