[Mac Plumart]

"many of the people who you talk about playing such courses often want to play at tee lengths far beyond that."

Huh?  Most of the guys I play with (and me as well) seem to prefer interesting greens to courses that are simply long.  Even the guys who hit it 300 plus yards off the tee and especially guys with + handicaps.  I suppose different courses for different horses.  Maybe that is what makes these discussions so interesting and the lists so captivating to many.


 
 
 
 

[Matt_Ward]

Mac:

You'd be surprised by the amt of people who don't want to play from too far forward. You may not have played with such people but I have. Keep in mind very few courses at tip length of 6,500 yards or less -- are really interesting and worthy of special acclaim. Merion keeps on being mentioned -- but it's no longer 6,500 yards from the tips and even if it were the field of such stellar courses is very limited. I don't enjoy such layouts if all it takes is club down sequences time after time after time.

[JR Potts]

They have stretched Merion now to over 6800 yds from the back tees but still, it is a great course at 6400 yds as well!! And at 6400 yds one will still most likely hit every club in the bag.

This is such a fallacy and it gets thrown around here with such regularity.  Merion, if you're driving it well is quite one diminutional from an approach shot perspective.  In June, I hit the following from the tips:
1.   Hybrid LW
2.   Driver, six iron out of the hazard on the left, LW
3.   Four iron
4.  Driver, hybrid, chip
5.  Driver, 9
6.  Driver, PW
7.  Driver, LW
8.  Driver, LW
9.  8 iron
10.  Driver, LW
11.  3 iron, LW
12.  Driver, PW
13.  LW
14.  Driver, PW
15.  Driver, PW
16.  Driver, PW
17.  Hybrid
18.  Driver, PW

Where's this great diversity?  The fact of the matter is that some courses need to be over 7400 to challenge ones long iron play.  6500 is fun but I certainly don't want to play it every day.

[Mac Plumart]

With the thread on 7,500 yards courses going on now combined with this one and the comments on each one tells me without a shadow of a doubt that different golfers desire different things from a golf course.  Plain and simple.

[JR Potts]

With the thread on 7,500 yards courses going on now combined with this one and the comments on each one tells me without a shadow of a doubt that different golfers desire different things from a golf course.  Plain and simple.

Exactly.  The problem is, since most golfers don't have sub 10 handicaps (or the ability to hit the ball 280plus), the golfing public and some on this board can't fathom why those of us with sub 10s and/or driving distance enjoy long "brutish" courses.  Just as it's not fun hitting 3 woods short on half the par 4s, it's no fun hitting LW into every par 4.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[jonathan_becker]

Ryan,

LW on 13?  for real? 

[JR Potts]

Yea...it's a 58 degree though....and it was slightly downwind.  Caught it a little thin and plugged it in the back bunker....bladed it from there...it caught the lip, popped straight up and landed 2 feet from the hole....nice 3.

[John Moore II]

So, I suppose I can chime in here too...

No, a golf course doesn't necessarily NEED to be over 6500 yards, but it all depends what you want to do with it. The key to it all is variety. Tobacco Road works well at 6500 because it has huge variety, allows/forces you to use different clubs off the tee, and gives you a wide variety of clubs into the green. Other courses at 6500 don't work all that well for the better player because they have holes of pretty much the same length. It all depends. A course with variety can play longer than the card says, while a course with little variety can play much shorter than the card. 7000 yards is not the same on every course, neither is 6500.

[jonathan_becker]

Yea...it's a 58 degree though....and it was slightly downwind.  Caught it a little thin and plugged it in the back bunker....bladed it from there...it caught the lip, popped straight up and landed 2 feet from the hole....nice 3.

In August, I had quite an adventure on 13 for an up and down 4, but your sequence is ridiculous    

[JR Potts]

My 3 should have been a 10.  That said, when I hit my tee shot, I thought it was in the hole.  Even looked in the hole before checking out the back bunker...and it wasn't in the hole.

What a great hole though.

[Tom_Doak]

With the thread on 7,500 yards courses going on now combined with this one and the comments on each one tells me without a shadow of a doubt that different golfers desire different things from a golf course.  Plain and simple.

Exactly.  The problem is, since most golfers don't have sub 10 handicaps (or the ability to hit the ball 280plus), the golfing public and some on this board can't fathom why those of us with sub 10s and/or driving distance enjoy long "brutish" courses.  Just as it's not fun hitting 3 woods short on half the par 4s, it's no fun hitting LW into every green.

Ryan,

I understand that you are bored with shorter golf courses, though you didn't say you found Merion boring.  But how many golfers hit it like you?  One in five hundred??  And if so, then why do 95% of modern courses have tees for you when only a few hundred players per year would enjoy them?

If it really was different courses for different horses, we wouldn't need too many courses for you, hoss.

[Philippe Binette]

Crystal downs is 6500 yards and it s not a driver - lob wedge course

[Alex Miller]

Crystal downs is 6500 yards and it s not a driver - lob wedge course

Once again, for whom?

I don't know the prevailing wind at Crystal Downs, but here are some guesses as to what I would hit into the greens based on the yardages of the golf holes and my unflinching choice of driver off of every non par 3 (I'm not long compared to some):

1. 7I
2. PW
3. 5I (par 3)
4. PW
5. LW
6. SW
7. LW
8. 3W/LW (par 5 in 2)
9. 7I (par 3)
10. PW
11. 5I (par 3)
12. PW
13. 9I
14. 9I (par 3)
15. LW
16. LW (par 5)
17. LW
18. SW

Obviously wind plays a factor so I could have more club into some holes, but why are people making these grand sweeping statements on here? Even though it's a 6,500 par 70 course, it doesn't play very long for low cappers or those with some length. On that course with no wind I have one par 4 where I hit more than 9I into the green. So, it's not a driver - lob wedge course, but it's not much more than a driver - 9I course, which wouldn't do it for most people.

Note: I have never been to Crystal Downs nor have I played it, however since this whole thread is based on presumed yardages it seemed appropriate to analyze based on yardages. Also, I'm sure it is a lovely course.

[JR Potts]

With the thread on 7,500 yards courses going on now combined with this one and the comments on each one tells me without a shadow of a doubt that different golfers desire different things from a golf course.  Plain and simple.

Exactly.  The problem is, since most golfers don't have sub 10 handicaps (or the ability to hit the ball 280plus), the golfing public and some on this board can't fathom why those of us with sub 10s and/or driving distance enjoy long "brutish" courses.  Just as it's not fun hitting 3 woods short on half the par 4s, it's no fun hitting LW into every green.

Ryan,

I understand that you are bored with shorter golf courses, though you didn't say you found Merion boring.  But how many golfers hit it like you?  One in five hundred??  And if so, then why do 95% of modern courses have tees for you when only a few hundred players per year would enjoy them?

If it really was different courses for different horses, we wouldn't need too many courses for you, hoss.

Tom:  you are right, I never said I was bored with Merion.  I loved it.  And I also never said that I'm bored with shorter courses.  Quite candidly, I don't play a lot of short courses so I certainly enjoy them when I play them.  I said that repeatedly playing one would become boring to me now.  In twenty years, it nay be just what the doctor ordered.

And I'm not quite sure why people are building tees at 7600 yards without the possibility of hosting a PGA event or elite Amateur event but appeantly there's enough interest in these tees from players who could be playing them and even those who shouldn't be playing them.

And, like it or not, sub 10 handicaps and/or those with distance on the golf course didn't get that way by accident....they likely play a lot of golf....hence the desire to build courses to appeal to this market segment I would think.

Then again, they could stop building them and ill just slam drivers and hybrids and 3 irons all over the shorter courses...and likely have a fun time doing that as well.

[PCCraig]

No 10+ handicap should be allowed to play a course longer than 6500 yards.

And adding to that no 20+ handicap should be allowed to play past 6000 yards.

That's nonsense.

That's like saying Padraig Harrington and Jim Furyk should not be allow to play past 6000 yards, because they take too long.

No it's not. It has nothing to do with speed of play and everything to do with skill. I don't know why 20+ handicaps feel the need to play past 6000 yards when they can barely break 100 and aren't consistent enough to actually utilize the strategy of individual golf holes.

[PCCraig]

No 10+ handicap should be allowed to play a course longer than 6500 yards.

And adding to that no 20+ handicap should be allowed to play past 6000 yards.

Pat,

At my club, the "boys" play the tips, just over 7,000 every Thursday.  They have caps between 8 and 32.  They have an absolute blast and I enjoy playing with them on occasion even though I'm giving up two shots on a number of holes.  These guys have been playing the course for 20+ years so they know all the preferred angles.  They play in in 3 hours and 20 min and take as much satisfaction in making a par on a long par 4 as I do making an eagle on a par 5.   What's so wrong with that?

Again, the arguement isn't all about slow play. And your example is one where they change tees once a week. God bless them if they want to shoot 120+ whacking away until their backs give out, but that's hardly playing the golf course properly IMO. What strategy or desicion making does a 30 handicap make on a 7000 hard golf course? Which part of the fairway to bunt it towards and hoping he can get to the green in 4 shots on a 400 yard hole???

That's like going back to playing golf as a 9 year old playing with your uncles non-cut down 3-wood. No fun in my book. I'd quit golf before I had to play 7500+ or 8000+ yard courses everyday which would probably be the equivalent for me.

[Jeff Spittel]

I 'm an 11 handicap and a pretty long but not terribly accurate driver of the ball. Perhaps it's more psychological than physical, but my scores tend to be considerably lower on when I play tees under 6,500 yards (granted I'm not referring to courses that host USGA events with exacting rough).

I am certainly not complaining and I think playing the up tees is a lot of fun for a change of pace, but I wouldn't want to play from that yardage every day. If you can fly most of the fairway bunkers and hit nothing but short irons into the greens, you're not really testing all aspects of your game. I personally get more satisfaction from shooting an 87 and hitting every club in my bag from the tips than I do from shooting 79 on a 6300 yard track where I can mindlessly blast my driver all day.   

[Jeff Spittel]

I 'm an 11 handicap and a pretty long but not terribly accurate driver of the ball. Perhaps it's more psychological than physical, but my scores tend to be considerably lower on when I play tees under 6,500 yards (granted I'm not referring to courses that host USGA events with exacting rough).

I am certainly not complaining and I think playing the up tees is a lot of fun for a change of pace, but I wouldn't want to play from that yardage every day. If you can fly most of the fairway bunkers and hit nothing but short irons into the greens, you're not really testing all aspects of your game. I personally get more satisfaction from shooting an 87 and hitting every club in my bag from the tips than I do from shooting 79 on a 6300 yard track where I can mindlessly blast my driver all day.   

Just a brief addendum - if I were a member at Merion, I'd be happy to play the ladies tees every day. Competitive satisfaction has its limitations.

[Jim Eder]

Ryan, what did you end up shooting at Merion that day? (I am not trying to be argumentative or anything, just curious). What is your handicap? It looks like you didn't hit 4 clubs that day assuming you have one hybrid. You didn't hit a 3 wood (which could be hit off a tee), a 2 iron, a 5 iron and a 7 iron. That isn't bad.  VERY impressive driving distance and accuracy it appears as well. I understand your point but I still personally believe Merion even from the shorter tees is absolutely stellar. I also didn't hit as many drivers off the tee as you did.

[Sean_A]

6500 yards is more than enough golf course for almost everybody on tbis planet.  To me, a clear need should be presented for building any extra length into a course.   

To me, saying hacks can hit it 300 yards is not a clear need.

To me, saying a 10 handicap can hit it 300 yards is not a clear need. 

To me, saying a PROPER scratch player who often breaks par presents an opportunity to discuss additional length AND other ways to increase the challenge. 

To me, saying the course will be used for proper big time amateur events or pro events on a regular basis presents a clear need for additonal length.

To answer the question, in very rare circumstances does a course NEED to be over 6500 yards. 

Ciao

[JR Potts]

Jim - I'm a 2, used to be a plus 3 in college before kids, wife, law practice, etc., and I shot 74 or 75.  And I had an all-world driving day.  In fact, it may have been the best I ever hit the driver.  But, I didn't hit 4 of my 13 clubs.  And all things being equal, two of them could have been interchangable as I was punching out of "the shit" or laying up.

None of this is intended to be a critique of Merion though....it's just a comment for those who say that Merion is the type of course where one hits all their clubs.....because for me and I suspect others, it certainly isnt.

Pine Valley, yes....Merion, no.  And to be clear - I LOVED MERION.

[Jim Eder]

It must have been a very fine display of hitting the ball. Very impressive. Thanks for sharing, your point is well taken, Pine Valley does demand a bit more than Merion. At Merion I tend to lay up a bit more and not be as courageous hitting driver as much so I tend to have a bit more variety. But your last line is so true, don't we all just love Merion.................... Thanks for sharing Ryan.

[Greg Chambers]

The back (black) tees at our course measure right at 7000 yards.  The next set up (blues) measure right around 6500.  We might, might, have one group per week that plays from the blacks.  Everybody else plays the blues or whites or golds.  So, I'm maintaining a total of half an acre of tee space for maybe one foursome per week.  That's 25% of my maintenance budget for tees.  That's insane.  So for me, the answer would be no, a golf course does not need to be over 6500 yards.

[Jud_T]

We keep going round and round on the same topic.  The vast majority of golfers don't consistently hit the ball over 250 and only a miniscule amount consistently hit it over 275 (and an even smaller subset of this group can make 5 footers all day to pay the rent).  Technology has widened the gap between the best players and the rest of us.  For example, the 15th hole at Kingsley is an uphill par four (1/2) playing 455 from the back to a tiny green, often into the wind.  Most people are hitting hybrid for their second shot or even laying up.  I 've seen pros and top amateurs hitting sand wedge in.  The reason all these courses are being built out to 7000+ yards is not IMHO to test the 2 sticks in the shop and the 1 legitimate + hdcp member.  It's to either attract tournaments, or have the appearance of doing so, get ratings, be considered a "championship" course and sell memberships/attract players who want to play "serious" golf courses for "serious" players.  Some courses even market themselves as "the longest course in Europe" etc...The real question is if you're sinking you're life savings into developing a course would you have the balls to build a 6500 yard par 70?

[archie_struthers]

 

nope . no need to be longer but if you have the ground to get it closer to 7,000 given todays technology it would be foolish of the architect ( actually negligent) not to allow for expansion and or build some way back tees .

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