Does a Golf Course need to be over 6,500 Yards?

[JESII]

I wasn't suggesting anything with my comments other than you can hardly hold it against any course to not attain the "every club in the bag" label from you...which is fine. I wish I could think about hitting par 5's in two that others haven't.

[JR Potts]

Jim:

I'm not holding it against any club that I, personally, didn't hit every club in the bag.  My point was that it is an empty compliment that is used on this site all the time as: a.) it universally means nothing and b.) for most it's likely untrue.

I use every club in my bag at places like Butler, Medinah, Hazeltine, Olympia Fields (North), Whistling Straits, Pine Valley....big, long, major championship golf courses (sans Butler and Pine Valley but they could host events there tomorrow) because I'm forced to hit 4 irons, 5 irons, 6 irons, 7 irons into par 4s. 

That said, most on here feel that a lot of the courses I mentioned are too long, too sloggy, too hard, etc....and I get those critiques for the most part.  But for a lot of players, these are the courses when one will "hit every club in their bag."

[JESII]

I think it's a very positive attribute of a course to put a wide range of distances in front of the player...whether it's by occassionally forcing a lay-up off the tee or not, I applaud it, and do think it matters.

[JMEvensky]

I think it's a very positive attribute of a course to put a wide range of distances in front of the player...whether it's by occassionally forcing a lay-up off the tee or not, I applaud it, and do think it matters.

That's really well put,IMO.

[Peter Pallotta]

It's funny, though, how many different ways architects have found to spread 6,500 yards over a 6,500 yard golf course. A few of those ways I have really disliked (and scored badly on), and in those cases I prefer the 'honesty' of a 7,000 yard course (which courses I also score badly on the few times I've played from there, but for different -- and more 'understandable' -- reasons). 

Peter

[JESII]

"Honesty"?

Is the sentimentalist in you creeping out again?

We're going to have to get that beer sometime soon...

[Sean_A]

It's funny, though, how many different ways architects have found to spread 6,500 yards over a 6,500 yard golf course. A few of those ways I have really disliked (and scored badly on), and in those cases I prefer the 'honesty' of a 7,000 yard course (which courses I also score badly on the few times I've played from there, but for different -- and more 'understandable' -- reasons). 

Peter

Pietro

What does this mean?

Ciao

[JNC Lyon]

It's funny, though, how many different ways architects have found to spread 6,500 yards over a 6,500 yard golf course. A few of those ways I have really disliked (and scored badly on), and in those cases I prefer the 'honesty' of a 7,000 yard course (which courses I also score badly on the few times I've played from there, but for different -- and more 'understandable' -- reasons). 

Peter

I agree with Sean, this paragraph does not make a lot of sense to me.  I guess I understand the point about spreading length across a golf course.  You don't want many holes of similar length.  However, isn't this true at any yardage?  I find it especially true at 7,000+ courses, where every par four must be over 400 yards to hit the goal of a long course.

I guess I don't understand how a 7,000 yarder is more "honest" than a 6,500 yarder.  In general, 7,000 yard courses are very much tests of physical ability rather than mental fortitude.  A good player simply gets to bash away with drivers and mid-irons, and he can shoot a good score without much thought.  I do not think this is true on shorter courses.  Even if every hole is a driver-lob wedge for the better player, these half shot approaches require much more thought than a blasted five iron approach.  Of course, the scratch player is a very small percentage of the golfing population, so designing courses for their tastes is not prudent.

Ultimately, I think an "honest" course is one that tests physical and mental abilities equally.  Of course, I do not see "honesty" as an ideal quality for a golf course.  Trickery, deception, and luck are vital parts of the game.

[Carl Rogers]

6 par 3's and 2 par 5's and the 10 par 4's give a par of 68 .....

a few minutes on a spreadsheet and you realize length wise, the 6500 yard course would be as much course as most would ever want

the substitution of the 3's for the 5's subtracts in basic terms 700 overall yards and 4 shots to par

[Jim Eder]

I haven't seen much discussion on this thread about what par the course "needs" to be. As Carl rightly points out, a 6500yd par 68 or 69 is probably quite different than a 6500yd par72. I think Rye is an absolutely wonderful (and difficult) course less than 6500 yds and with a par of 68. Rye does not need to be longer than 6500 yds. And I hit every club in the bag at Rye.   

[Mac Plumart]

I don't know if this adds anything to the discussion...but maybe it will.

I played nine after work today and had this thread in my head, so I kept track of my shots.  FYI...the course is St. Ives and I play the green tees about 6,800 yards and rated something like 72.5/140.

Here is my round:

Thinned driver 230, 6 iron 160 into greenside bunker, 60 degree, putt, putt…bogey 5

3 iron 210, 56 degree wedge, putt…par 3

3 wood 240, wedge, putt, putt…par 4

3 wood 220, 8 iron 140, 60 degree wedge, putt, putt…bogey 5

Pulled driver 150ish yards off a few trees, punched 3 iron under trees, 3 wood, wedge, 56 degree wedge, putt, putt…UGH!!...double bogey 7

4 iron 200 yards, 56 degree wedge, putt…par 3

Driver 260 yards, 3 iron 190 yards, wedge, putt, putt…bogey 5

Driver 260 yards, 5 iron 170 yards, 60 degree wedge, putt, putt…bogey 5

Driver 230 yards, 3 iron 170 yards, 5 iron 150 yards, putt, putt…par 5

Score…6 over 42 for nine holes (pretty average for me)

Clubs hit:
five drivers hit;
 three 3 woods;
four 3 irons;
one 4 iron;
 two 5 irons;
 one 6 iron;
zero 7 irons;
one 8 iron;
zero 9 irons;
 three pitching wedges;
 three 56 degree wedges;
 three 60 degree wedges;
 16 putts 

GIR…1 out of 9 (ouch!)
Fairways hit…4 out of 7

[Brian_Sleeman]

Regarding Crystal Downs, it's 6500 yards, but it plays much longer for a handful of reasons:

1) The par is only 70 (and the two par fives are fairly long)
2) There are several short par fours (5, 6, 7, 15, 17) (which allows for some longer par fours in 1, 2, 4, 12, and 13)
3) Several approaches are at least slightly uphill (2, 4, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 17, 18)
4) The wind often howls at 20-40 mph

It also presents a high level of difficulty through its creatively contoured and challenging greens, so that once you get there (which takes longer than you think), then the fun really begins.  That's to say nothing of the un-mowed rough areas.

It seems like a pretty good recipe to me.  Par is broken about once a year, and it's an absolute blast every single day.

[Jim Nugent]

On how many non par 3s will the players likely hit driver in the 2013 U.S. Open?  I'm curious to know if the pros and top ams will hit wedge into as many greens as Ryan did.   

[JESII]

On how many non par 3s will the players likely hit driver in the 2013 U.S. Open?  I'm curious to know if the pros and top ams will hit wedge into as many greens as Ryan did.   

Jim,

Ballpark guesses:

#1 - par 4 - Hybrid or maybe 3 wood
#2 - Par 5 - Almost definitely a driver
#4 - Par 5 - Most will hit Driver, some 3 woods if they know they'll never go for the green in two
#5 - Par 4 - Upper tee, always driver, lowere tee could bring out 3 wood occassionally
#6 - Par 4 - Driver everytime
#7 - par 4 - No more than a couple will hit driver - most will hit a long iron about 230
#8 - Par 4 - Ditto
#10 - Par 4 - A few drivers, a few long players will hit 3 wood and alot of guys will hit irons 230 or so
#11 - Par 4 - No drivers - 240 max length
#12 - Par 4 - Mostly drivers  - some 3 woods from longer guys
#14 - Par 4 - Half Drivers - Half 3 wood
#15 - Par 4 - Some Drivers, but more 3 woods
#16 - Par 4 - Mostly 3 woods - this surprised me about Ryan because the fairway ends about 280 or 290 from the tee I think.
#18 - Par 4 - I'd guess all drivers, but I personally like to stay short of the crest of the hill if I can't hit it way over. This leaves a better stance and view which makes up for about 30 yards worth of distance in my view. This thought may lead to some 3 woods.

[JESII]

If you want to hit driver as often as possible without taking unnecessary risks there are at least 7 unquestionable driver holes...not bad.

[JR Potts]

#16 - Par 4 - Mostly 3 woods - this surprised me about Ryan because the fairway ends about 280 or 290 from the tee I think.

Surprised me too....I killed it but blocked it...right into the 15 yard wide fairway that ran up the hill to the right.

I never would hit driver there again.

It was my first time playing it....I didn't know any better.

[JESII]

That's what I figured.

Do you agree with my assesments pretty much for US Open guys?

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim, Sean, JNC -

besides it being a sign that I'm a rank sentimentalist, what I meant was that some architects (i.e. courses that I don't like and don't score well on) try to extend a course so it 'covers' 6,500 yards, but don't seem to have either the imagination or the routing skills or the land in order to do this soundly and well, and so instead do it by spreading out those yards in forced and uninteresting ways, e.g. by adding length to all the Par 3s -- so you get 4 of them all around the 200 yard mark -- and also piling on the yards on the par 5s, stretching them out to 580 yards of banality (and putting a green not where an ideal green site might've been but simply at the 'end' of those 580 yards), and then they turn around and litter the course with a whole bunch of short and/or twisting Par 4s, not 'driveable' Par 4s mind you, just layups and pitches and putts, over and over again.  (On the other hand, some 6500 yard courses have a range of Par 3s, a range of Par 4s -- including a number of stout two-shotters, and a range of par 5s).  And, in comparison to the 6,500 yard course I described -- i.e. one that tries too hard to give the golfer the 'experience' of length in any way possible -- I think I would prefer the 7,000 yard course that comes by that length in the old-fashioned way and more 'honestly' -- by actually being longer throughout, from start to finish. That's what I meant.

Peter

[Jim Eder]

Jim,

I agree with your view on tee shots for the most part. It will depend on how tough the rough will be (My guess is very) and how receptive the greens will be (my guess not very). I could see where the guys use 3 wood a bit more but some of the angels get a bit tough if you lay back. Either way it will really make them think about what to use. Personally I hit driver on 2, 4, 5, 6, 12, and 18.  14 and 15 I use 3 wood but could use driver. I hit the driver 280-290 and have a 13 degree that I hit about 260.  Just going through the thinking of how to play each hole it just highlights what a great course it is. So strategic.

[Sean_A]

"but some of the angels get a bit tough if you lay back" - makes me wonder how good heaven really is???

Pietro

Yes, I gotcha now.  I don't see that many courses of the type you describe (England is pretty good for solidly designed short courses - tee hee), but there are a few around the Ann Arbor area which are fairly new and utterly forgetable.   

Ciao

[Jim Eder]

Freudian slip. I guess Merion is heaven and those holes are truly angelic to me.  Hahahahahahahaha  I think I meant to type angles.........

[Dan Boerger]

Jim - A question I have about the Open setup at Merion will be how they will keep the rough up and penal and still allow for crowds. Particularly holes 14 - 18.

After witnessing what I did first hand at Aronimink this summer I imagine some of the professionals will go for the green at #1, and go for the greenside bunker at #8.

[JESII]

Dan,

What did you witness at Aronimink?

Just pure distance? Or something else?

I think crowd management at Merion will be brutally difficult...that area of 14 fairway, 15 tee and 16 green specifically.

[Jim Eder]

Dan,

I don't know how they are going to manage the crowds and keep the rough up. It gets a bit congested there on 14 fairway etc. It is going to be a big challenge (sadly).

Depending on the tee #1 to take it over that bunker into the throat will be a great tee shot, it is a long carry. Is it worth it? Depends on the set up, how narrow it is. I hit it a pretty good way but I don't even consider that play. Would be interesting to see what Ryan thinks. And depending on how the greens are that pitch could be a bit interesting.  My guess is the USGA will put the tees up at least one of the days to tempt a bit more. And on 8, I guess I could see that play but is that a smart play? What happens if you don't get it in that bunker? I like to put it at 100yds and hit the full wedge in, I just think it is a smarter play. I couldn't get it in that bunker anyway though. I tend to like to play full shots into greens so I am not the best to comment but I am sure there will be some to try to knock it down there especially if there is some helping wind. But with all that said I think it is great that people will at least consider hitting certain shots and being tempted.  I think we could see some big numbers on a poorly executed shot. My guess the winner will be very patient out there.

Ryan, what do you think  about 1 and 8?

[JR Potts]

I never knew that driving the green on one was an option - until I got up there.  I don't think it beneifts anyone to try it as a well struck 260 yard shot leaves you with a little wedge.  On 8 I hit it into the front bunker and found it to be a quite accomodating place...but with trouble all along the right on 7 & 8, I don't see a lot of guys ripping driver there either....there's just no huge benefit when they can have wedge in their hand with a hybrid off the tee.

I'm sure some idiots like me will go for it but I don't see the benefit in a competitive round.

These guys on tour hit their three woods and hybrid so good that they might just pepper the course to death.

This is how I see it going:
1. Hybrid/3-Wood
2. Driver
4. Driver
5. Driver
6. Driver
7. Hybrid
8. Hybrid
10. Hybrid
11. 3 Iron
12. Hybrid/3 Wood (with the severity of the green - I think they would rather have a 9 or 8 iron than a SW or Wedge to take some of the spin off the ball)
14. Driver
15. 3 Wood
16. Hybrid/ 3-Wood
18. Driver

I don't know how that matches up with your prediction Jim but I imagine it's pretty close.

Guys with medium length (Toms, Stricker, Points, Campbell, Clarke, McDowell, etc.) may hit more drivers but the "big boys" like Rory, Ian, Lee, Tiger, Phil, Jeff, Dustin, etc. will likely follow something along these lines.  (Maybe not Phil and Dustin because they're not the best course managers)

But that's my prediction.