First Time Scotland Advice

[Wade Schueneman]

Dare I say it?  Have you considered going to Ireland instead. 

It sounds like you have not booked flights yet and that Turnberry (based on size of group and cost) and TOC and Muirfield (based on availability) are out.  Perhaps the trip to Scotland could be set for another day.  My guess is that you may still be able to book a great itinerary in Ireland.  You might at least look into it.  PLUS there are some real deals in Ireland right now (ex. two rounds for 165 euro at Lahinch).  However, in the interest of full disclosure, I am biased towards Ireland anyway (especially if TOC is taken out of the picture). 

[Jason Sills]

Dare I say it?  Have you considered going to Ireland instead. 

It sounds like you have not booked flights yet and that Turnberry (based on size of group and cost) and TOC and Muirfield (based on availability) are out.  Perhaps the trip to Scotland could be set for another day.  My guess is that you may still be able to book a great itinerary in Ireland.  You might at least look into it.  PLUS there are some real deals in Ireland right now (ex. two rounds for 165 euro at Lahinch).  However, in the interest of full disclosure, I am biased towards Ireland anyway (especially if TOC is taken out of the picture). 

Appreciate you tinking outside the box but I have been to Ireland twice and never Scotland and this trip will be in celebration of my 40th!

Jason

[Niall C]

If you can get reservations at TOC, I suggest the following 9 day trip

F CB
S RA
S Carnoustie
M TOC
T New or Eden
W NB
T Muirfield
F Prestwick
S Western Gailes
 
Have you considered playing Machrihanish and the Machrie?

Troon and Turnberry are expensive if you want guaranteed tee times for large groups (which is why those are absent).

Jason, This is a great itinerary by Wade.  It will make the travel pretty easy.  As an FYI, Royal Aberdeen is hosting the Walker Cup in July so it might be closed. 

Cruden Bay, Muirfield, Royal Aberdeen, Prestwick, Western Gailes, Troon are all members courses that have some visitor times and therefore even Prince Andrew, Captain of the R&A might struggle to get a weekend time on Royal Aberdeen, Western Gailes etc let alone 16 tourists on a budget holiday. BTW, apart from Skibo Castle you've pretty well picked the most expensive courses in Scotland.

If you are particularly keen on any of these particular courses you will need to plan around them. You might have more latitude at Carnoustie, St Andrews (other than TOC), Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart if you book far enough in advance as they are basically pay and plays. However I fear you are already too late for next July unless you want to pick some links off the B list which are often just as good as most on the list you gave and certainly better than Cruden Bay (sorry, most over rated course in Scotland IMHO).

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

I have it on good authority that Cruden is a great course. It has been promoted on this site alone by Anthony (you know the Doc who spends more time high on his own gas than treating his assortment of teeth).

Actually I too like and enjoy Cruden, but I do not push Royal Dornoch as much as others. It is down my list preferring Tain and Strathpeffer Spa or Moray where one is always welcome.

Melvyn 

[Anthony Gray]

  Jason

   Cruden Bay
  Cruden Bay
  Cruden Bay
  Cruden Bay
  Cruden Bay
  Cruden Bay
  Cruden Bay
  Cruden Bay
  Cruden Bay
  The Old Course

  Anthony

 

[Michael Whitaker]

Jason - You have gotten lots of good advice here on courses and itinerary. I think Wade has offered the best suggestion for a newbee.

F CB
S RA
S Carnoustie
M TOC
T New or Eden
W NB
T Muirfield
F Prestwick
S Western Gailes

It is hard to resist the temptation to zoom all over the country trying to play the courses that have hosted the Open Championship or you have seen on TV, but resist! Courses like Cruden Bay, North Berwick, and Prestwick will knock your socks off with their fun and drama. Wade's list is a great mix of British Open rota courses, history, and pure unadulterated fun. If you go with this list you can book your flight into Aberdeen and depart from Prestwick. Shouldn't cost much extra and will dramatically cut down on backtracking and travel time.

One more piece of IMPORTANT advice... spend time in the pubs/clubs talking to the locals. It will GREATLY enhance your experience. Racing from one course to the next will allow you to check some courses off your list, but you will not get the full flavor of the country or its people. If you want more than 18 holes per day you are much better off playing the same course again than hopping in your van and flying to another course. Allow each day's experience to soak in (pun intended) over a pint with your mates. Trust me, you will be glad you did!

[Michael Whitaker]

One more thought... booking a golf trip in Scotland is no different than booking one in Myrtle Beach... it just takes you longer to get there! The hotels and B&Bs are experienced in helping make arrangements, like booking tee times. They do it every day, it's how they make a living. Let them help you! Call them up or email them and ask for help. You will find they they will go out of their way to help you plan a great trip... they want you to come back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  

[Tim Johnson]

Lots of great advice and pretty much covers the gamut of travel in Scotland. I have done 2 two week trips to Scotland and 2 two week trips to Ireland. All self drive with my dad and we booked our own golf and hotels and it was simple. With email and the fact that we have done the trip so often,,  it is a very simple process.

Back in the day my dad would actually get out a ruler and measure the distance on maps. He was not impressed when I showed him Google Maps the other day, took me about 5 minutes to have a detailed route and hours to drive all around Scotland. Use the golf course web site to find local inns and they usually have deals with them.

As far as driving, some people prefer to be center based and drive out to the  courses. We choose to start on the west coast, drive north and down around the east coast and play a course a day for 14 days. In 07 we landed at Glasgow and drove/ferry out to The Machrie for 2 days and then Machrihanish for 2 days. Left Machrihanish around 1pm and was in Dornoch by about 8pm. 2 days in Dornoch and then head south stopping off at any of the courses of note towards TOC and Muirfield. It may sound like a lot of driving but it really isnt that bad aside from the drive to RD and the first day out to the Machrie.

Ireland is even better, starting out at Carne and going up around the north part of Ireland and into NI, the drives are mostly under 2 hours and the courses are incredible.....Enniscrone, Donegal, Sligo, Rosapenna, Ballyliffin etc. The deals I have seen through some of the hotels are incredible when considering B&B, dinners and golf rates.

We had planned to do the Ireland/NI trip in May but my 78 year old father is concerned about the violence in NI recently(car bombs) and would prefer to do the Scotland run again. he is a worrier and I love courses in both places so it doesnt bother me wherever we go.

In regards to pubs....do it!!!!! Some of the best non golf related memories are drinking beers with the locals in the smalll towns we visited. I think I was still drunk on the first tee at lahinch the next day, great night.

I have a spreadsheet done up for the Ireland/NI trip we did in 05 if anybody is interested.....the best run of links golf in my mind when considering quality of course, golf rate and of course the people.

Enjoy your your trip, whatever you decide on will be the best trip of your life.

[Jim Eder]

Tim, I would enjoy seeing your spreadsheet for the 05 trip for Ireland/N.I. I haven't been for a while and would like to do it again.  Thanks.

Unfortunately with a big group this would not be possible but I would add to the pleasure of the pubs the absolute pleasure and honor to play with the members of the clubs. The members one can be paired with are truly lovely to play with and are an absolute wealth of knowledge about the course and the history of the course and club. I have never played with a member who wasn't an absolute delight.

[James Boon]

1) Does price matter?   YES IT DOES.  Its a group of 16 guys and some need to be on a budget so all will be on a budget.

2) Do you like quirky golf or "fair" golf or a nice mix?  Define quirky in terms of something I might understand locally?

3) Do you think that getting there is half of the fun?  Dont want to waste too much time on travel.

4) Are there any parts of Scotland that you really want to see?  NOPE, just golf!

5) How important is the history of a course to you?  I do like courses with history.

Jason,

As you are a newbie I wil start by saying Welcome to GCA!

Now regarding your quest for advice, dont take this the wrong way, but I'm a little confused? I may be an Englishman, but I'm a regular visitor to Scotland for more than just the golf, so one of my standard responses to these sort of queries is to tell people that sure they want to play as much golf as possible, but take a little time travelling around to look beyond the windscreen and see the country thats out there. Not just the scenery, but as others have suggested, a bit of time in a local pub, or experiencing a more local club, will give you a real flavour of the country and some great memories to take home.

However, you've suggested in your above responses and elsewhere that you aren't interested in any hidden gems and you arent bothered about seeing Scotland, just the golf! Each to their own I suppose, but unless all you want is to tick off a list of top courses played, I think you are missing out a bit here?

If I were you I'd go with the St. Andrews / Dornoch split of locations which will allow some of those top courses, but also some of the next tier courses that in all honesty aren't hidden gems to most on GCA.

Failing that, if you aren't bothered about seeing any of the country and just want some top golf, why not travel south of the border instead and visit England? Plenty of top courses, just with slightly fewer bagpipes and kilts   Where ever you choose, I know you will recieve a warm welcome and all have a great time!

Cheers,

James

[Wade Schueneman]

Jason, if you have been to Ireland twice can you share what your favorite courses were and why?  That would really help me at least to estimate which courses you might prefer in Scotland.

[Kevin Pallier]

Jason

There are four courses on your list that I would recommend as "must sees" in Scotland - after assuming you arrive into Edinburgh (in order of travel):
- North Berwick
- Muirfield
- TOC
- Royal Dornoch
the rest you can try to plan around after seeing those for mine.

But with a tour group your size / the time of year you hope to travel - you had better get onto scheduling your courses sooner rather than later.

[Carl Johnson]

Here's the answer based on my experience, three trips and 25 courses in Scotland.  I haven't ranked the unmarked courses because I have not played them (paid my money at North Berwick, but became ill and had to bag it (pun intended)).  However, as others have already said, so much depends on so many other factors that just to focus on course rankings, whoever gives them to you, is not the best way to go about it.  Still, looking only at courses on your list, and excluding others I've played, here are my rankings:

Old Course (5)
Turnberry (2)
Royal Troon (7)
Muirfield (9)
Carnoustie (eight)
Royal Dornoch (3)
Cruden Bay (4)
Royal Aberdeen
Castle Stuart
Kingsbarn(6)
North Berwick
Loch Lomond
Western Gailes (5)
Prestwick (1)

Why is the Old Course down at no. 5?  Because I don't think that in one round you'll get that much out of it . . . other than a notch on the old persimon driver.

[Andy Shulman]

Jason - As a first-timer, if you do decide to plan the trip yourself - it's pretty easy, as others have suggested - then invest $20 in a copy of Golf in Scotland, which is available on Amazon.  I've used it to plan two trips to Scotland (one solo and one for a group of eight) and the information is dead on, will save you money and give you ideas you'd have never thought of.  For example, you can book a round for your full group at a course in Fife such as Lundin, where the deposit is only 10 GBP.  Then, those members of your group who get Old Course times via the daily ballot can either skip Lundin (losing only 10 GBP) or reschedule their time for later in the day or another day.

[Mark Chaplin]

A group of 16 is fantastic but will take some extra planning re stop overs and meals. It is easy to get a curry for 8 but 16 will require pre-booking at restaurants and in some cases pre-ordering of meals.

I wish you good luck with your planning!

[Gary Slatter]

Jason, I just send this link to friend Gordon Murray in St Andrews.  Our friend, John Philp, a great old pro, works with one of the best local tour operators with access and good trans for a group of 16.  16 is tough, a few pros I know always bring odd numbers so they can add a local in each fourball, this improves availabilty and price at many courses.  Gordon and John have excellent local connections.

I like the idea of St Andrews and Nairn for a two base trip.  Your guys would love both locations and in July you can play until pretty late.

[Niall C]

Jason - As a first-timer, if you do decide to plan the trip yourself - it's pretty easy, as others have suggested - then invest $20 in a copy of Golf in Scotland, which is available on Amazon.  I've used it to plan two trips to Scotland (one solo and one for a group of eight) and the information is dead on, will save you money and give you ideas you'd have never thought of.  For example, you can book a round for your full group at a course in Fife such as Lundin, where the deposit is only 10 GBP.  Then, those members of your group who get Old Course times via the daily ballot can either skip Lundin (losing only 10 GBP) or reschedule their time for later in the day or another day.

...ah, thats why the locals can never get a tee time at Lundin 

[Melvyn Morrow]

My God Niall, its enough to get a gathering of the Clans  - what’s this a Glaswegian pretending to be from The Kingdom by making a statement “ah, thats why the locals can never get a tee time at Lundin”

Next you will be saying that the Park’s come from St Andrews, ‘nay dram for you laddie, you push friendship a wee too far’. Although for a bottle of Single Malt I’m certain we can resolve this like the gentlemen at the Ryder Cup in the States a few years ago

Melvyn

[Jason Sills]

UPDATE

Thanks for all the great input.  I got a lot of great comments.  Below is what i am currently working on but nothing is confirmed yet. Wish me luck!!

19 Tuesday   Depart US   
20 Wednesday   NEW or CASTLE
21 Thursday   St Andrews OLD/Kingsbarn
22 Friday      Carnoustie
23 Saturday   Gleneagles King
24 Sunday      Turnberry/Prestwick
25 Monday      Royal Troon
26 Tuesday   Royal Dornoch
27 Wednesday   Castle Stuart
28 Thursday   Cruden Bay/Royal Aberdeen
29 Friday   Depart for US   

[David_Tepper]

Jason -

That is a very ambitious schedule. Be aware that the drive time between Troon & Dornoch is 5-6 hours.

Since Gleneagles is north of Edinburgh, you might want to think about heading further north to Royal/Aberdeen/Cruden Bay from there, then on to Castle Stuart/Dornoch and then down to the Ayrshire Coast (Troon, Prestwick & Turnberry).   

I assume you are flying into/out of either Glasgow or Edinburgh.

[Mark Chaplin]

David - Gleneagles Saturday & Turnberry Sunday looks like access issues as they are not member clubs.

Jason - one assumes being budget aware was a smoke screen, this is as high end as it gets.

This is massively ambitious my question is will the oldest/slowest member be able to keep up with such a strenuous schedule? Staying high end but avoiding driving I'd advise you to ditch Ayrshire, book Kingsbarns Saturday and Gleneagles Sunday then go to Dornoch. Pencil in Jubilee or Eden course for Thursday plus the Himalayas (great fun as a group) you all get an extra day in the ballot. Take the spare day as a slow drive to Dornoch maybe having a game at Boat of Garten a real highland beauty.

Spending a little more time in St Andrews gives you a base and if one of your group is jet lagged or under the weather they are not on a route march.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark's advice is, of course, sound.  I wonder if seeking advice was really the point of this thread, though?

[Sean_A]

UPDATE

Thanks for all the great input.  I got a lot of great comments.  Below is what i am currently working on but nothing is confirmed yet. Wish me luck!!

19 Tuesday   Depart US   
20 Wednesday   NEW or CASTLE
21 Thursday   St Andrews OLD/Kingsbarn
22 Friday      Carnoustie
23 Saturday   Gleneagles King
24 Sunday      Turnberry/Prestwick
25 Monday      Royal Troon
26 Tuesday   Royal Dornoch
27 Wednesday   Castle Stuart
28 Thursday   Cruden Bay/Royal Aberdeen
29 Friday   Depart for US   

Jason

This is a seriously ambitious forced march itinerary.  I fully understand wanting to hit the hot spots, but with only 11 days, 9 of which are for golf, I believe you are far better off creating a north/south line; Ayeshire, Fife and East Lothian for the south and Aberdeenshire, Southerland and points in between in the north.  The Carnoustie/Gleneagles area can swing either way depending on what happens with tee time availaibility and how that fits with your must plays.  Okay, this means at least two trips to Scotland to cover your bases, but there are worse places to go on a golfing holiday.  Taking more than one trip also allows for the opportunity to see some gems you are ignoring.  Some of these gems could prove to be the highlight of the trip for some plus they offer a welcome break from championship courses.  Finally, you haven't designed your trip to work in a loop.  So presumably you are either miles from the first course when landing or miles from the airport when finishing.  One never knows what will happen and should plan for problems.  Therefore, get your last course close to the departure airport or the risk of missing the flight rises unnecessarily.  

PS To get that close to North Berwick and not make time for it is bordering on criminal. 

PSII  If you insist on getting up to Dornoch, make time for Brora. 

Ciao    

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jason

So this is your itinerary for your trip to Scotland

19 Tuesday   Depart US   
20 Wednesday   NEW or CASTLE
21 Thursday   St Andrews OLD/Kingsbarn
22 Friday      Carnoustie
23 Saturday   Gleneagles King
24 Sunday      Turnberry/Prestwick
25 Monday      Royal Troon
26 Tuesday   Royal Dornoch
27 Wednesday   Castle Stuart
28 Thursday   Cruden Bay/Royal Aberdeen
29 Friday   Depart for US   


I am inclined to go with Sean, however you have set your mind on the courses so I was wondering if you had thought of swapping some courses around i.e I presume you want to start at The Home of Golf St Andrews and with a self-drive car so my suggestion is as follows

19 Tuesday      Depart US
20 Wednesday New Course or Castle (Castle – you cannot be serious, sorry this is your choice)
21 Thursday    TOC/ Kingsbarn
22 Friday     Carnoustie
23 Saturday     Gleneagles King
24 Sunday        Cruden Bay/Royal Aberdeen
25 Monday     Castle Stuart
26 Tuesday       Royal Dornoch
27 Wednesday  Royal Troon
28 Thursday     Turnberry/Prestwick

You keep all your courses but travel anti clockwise from St Andrews up North then West then South to Prestwick. Will you be flying out of Prestwick – whatever, one thing to note is by following the above suggestion you will be travelling towards your nest course by going ant clockwise. However you will have a long drive from Dornoch to Troon/Prestwick some 244 miles taking approx. 5hours 30 mins if you have no road works - See attached map.



If you can ditch either Troon or Turnderry and spend that last full day at Prestwick, part for playing a great course you have the other half of the day to enjoy the clubhouse and its history.

Just a thought, enjoy yourself whichever way you undertake your trip.

Melvyn

[Ross Tuddenham]

In my experience of getting to places in the US from Scotland it has been easier to fly from Edinburgh/Glasgow to Newark then take an internal flight in the US.  As opposed to flying to London then the my final destination in the US.  It also tends to work out cheaper, as the Edinburgh to London flights are a little pricey compared to internal US flights.

If you do fly to Edinburgh I would dump gleneagles from the itinerary and add north Berwick, for on it is a far superior golfing experience and secondly you get to experience a night in Edinburgh.

The drive north will take a lot longer than the mileage suggests, like a few of the roads in Scotland. On the whole i think you need to reconsider the scale of your itinerary and as Melvyn suggested travel anti clockwise and leave from Glasgow.