Sebonack - Underrated at #39 (GD)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Geoffrey Walsh,

Which of the 38 courses ranked higher would you bounce in favor of Sebonack ?

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

About half of them, at least.

If someone can post the top 50 on the GD list I'd be happy to weigh in and name names.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike,

Here is the listing ...

AUGUSTA NATIONAL
PINE VALLEY
SHINNECOCK HILLS G.C.
CYPRESS POINT CLUB
OAKMONT C.C.
PEBBLE BEACH G. LINKS
MERION G.C. (East)
WINGED FOOT G.C. (West)
FISHERS ISLAND CLUB
SEMINOLE G.C.
OAK HILL C.C. (East)
CHICAGO G.C.
SAND HILLS G.C.
PACIFIC DUNES
NATIONAL G. LINKS OF AMERICA
CRYSTAL DOWNS C.C.
WADE HAMPTON G.C.
THE COUNTRY CLUB (Clyde/Squirrel)
MUIRFIELD VILLAGE G.C
MEDINAH C.C. (No. 3)
PRAIRIE DUNES C.C.
WHISTLING STRAITS (Straits)
OAKLAND HILLS C.C. (South)
VICTORIA NATIONAL G.C.
THE OCEAN COURSE
THE OLYMPIC CLUB (Lake)
THE CLUB AT BLACK ROCK
CASTLE PINES G.C.
BETHPAGE STATE PARK (Black)
BALTUSROL G.C. (Lower)
RIVIERA C.C.
PINEHURST RESORT & C.C. (No. 2)
BANDON DUNES
SOUTHERN HILLS C.C.
THE GOLF CLUB
SAN FRANCISCO G.C.
BUTLER NATIONAL G.C.
THE HONORS COURSE
SEBONACK G.C.
INVERNESS CLUB
SHADOW CREEK
CANYATA G.C.
OLYMPIA FIELDS C.C. (North)
THE QUARRY AT LA QUINTA
TPC SAWGRASS (Players Stadium)
RICH HARVEST LINKS
LOS ANGELES C.C. (North)
KINLOCH G.C.
ARCADIA BLUFFS G.C.
SHOAL CREEK

[Ian Andrew]

Supposedly, A different investor was looking into the old estate Sebonack resides on. He had Tom Fazio look at it, and was told that he (TF) could not build a great course there.

Adam,

Since I saw the routing he did for the site, I think that may be a bit of a tall tale.

The strangest part I remember were the two ocean side holes playing towards the current 18th tee.
I thought it was an odd choice.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Ian - If I am understanding you correctly, I can see playing up to 18 tee from the current 18 fairway being pretty cool. A bit of a climb up the hill, then the view out into that back portion of h2o and the natural bunkers on the land across.

However coming back up hill, h2o to the left seems like a waste. Not only do you play away from the obvious view but, as I have said before, you waste what seems to be 2 of the most obvious greensites on the course #11 and 12...

[J_ Crisham]

Geoffrey Walsh,

Which of the 38 courses ranked higher would you bounce in favor of Sebonack ?

Pat,  Having played Sebonack a couple months ago it is fairly fresh in my mind so the courses that I feel are unfairly rated by GD ahead of it are as follows:  The Honors, Butler, Bandon, Balturol Lower, Olympic Club, Ocean Course, Whistling Straits, Medinah. These are all very fine courses and certainly top 100 but rated higher than I feel they should be . Keep in mind that Rich Harvest Links is #46 by GD. This is a love it or hate it track- most seasoned golfers hate it. In Chicago I could pick 10 courses that are better.  My opinion is that the Golfweek ratings appear to be much more accurate in their attempt to rank the great courses in this country. Just my thoughts. I would place Sebonack at the 25-30 range.
                                                          Wish you well,  Jack

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sebonack is still a work in progress. I love it and feel it is one of the elite courses in America. Time is the friend of this great course.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Geoffrey Walsh,

Which of the 38 courses ranked higher would you bounce in favor of Sebonack ?

Pat,

I can only speak to the ones I have played but I would take a round at Sebonack over the following:
The Golf Club
Riviera
Baltusrol
Bethpage (and I played there growing up, was a Committee Chair for the 2009 Open)
Kiawah (Ocean)
Muirfield Village

And I would have to think long and hard about Sebonack vs. WFW

From what I have read, I would think it would compare favorably to the following:
Honors
Butler
Bandon
Castle Pines
Black Rock
Olympic
VN
Medinah
TCC
Wade Hampton

I'll let Senor Cirba chime in since he can actually travel and play golf these days.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

That leaves a group of heavy hitter possibles IMHO which others can chime in on:
SFGC
Southern Hills
Pinehurst
Oakland Hills
Whistling Straits
Prarie Dunes
Crystal Downs
Chicago
Oak Hill
Seminole
Pebble

[mark chalfant]

I would put Sebonack ahead of

Olympic
The Country  Club
Medinah-  way ahead
Baltusrol
Oak Hill- way ahead

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

Thanks for that listing.

In my humble opinion, the following are courses that I would rate as superior to Sebonack, which is admittedly a very subjective exercise.

Still, I think you'll see that I hold it in very high regard, and was shocked at how good it is.

AUGUSTA NATIONAL
PINE VALLEY
SHINNECOCK HILLS G.C.
CYPRESS POINT CLUB
OAKMONT C.C.
MERION G.C. (East)
SAND HILLS G.C.
RIVIERA C.C.

SEBONACK G.C.

There are a few others like Pac Dunes that are in the same neighborhood.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I agree w you in terms of the overall greatness of Sebonack.

Of the current top 50 by GD I have played 45. I would place Sebonack ahead of the following courses ...

Likely Sebonack would be in the 25-30 range for me.

OAK HILL C.C. (East)
WADE HAMPTON G.C.
THE COUNTRY CLUB (Clyde/Squirrel)
MUIRFIELD VILLAGE G.C
MEDINAH C.C. (No. 3)
WHISTLING STRAITS (Straits)
THE CLUB AT BLACK ROCK
CASTLE PINES G.C.
BALTUSROL G.C. (Lower)
BANDON DUNES
SOUTHERN HILLS C.C.
INVERNESS CLUB
OLYMPIA FIELDS C.C. (North)
THE QUARRY AT LA QUINTA
TPC SAWGRASS (Players Stadium)
RICH HARVEST LINKS
ARCADIA BLUFFS G.C.
SHOAL CREEK

[Robert Thompson]

Funny, I had two trips to Long Island in consecutive years, playing Maidstone, Shinnecock, Sebonack, and the next year, Friar's Head, NGLA and Creek Club.

Frankly I didn't see much of a comparison between Sebonack and Friar's Head, though I did see them a year apart. In my mind, Sebonack started nicely and ended well, but didn't overwhelm me at all in the middle. On the other hand, I felt Friar's Head was terrific throughout. I thought you could really see the push/pull between Nicklaus and Doak throughout -- strange mixes of Doak greens and Nicklaus strategy, or vice versa.
I don't see any comparison between Sebonack and NGLA or Shinnecock -- it isn't in their league.

To those who seem to really appreciate Sebonack, how high would you rank it on the world list, which it isn't currently on?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Geoff, Jack, Mark &  Mike,

How do you justify your position in light of the course making modifications, (fix its) ?

Are more modifications in store ?

Do you find the 2nd green an asset or a liability in terms of ranking ?

How about the 17th hole with a far right hole location ?

I like a lot of things about Sebonack, but, I'm always nervous about declaring greatness when a course is undergoing architectural transitions/alterations so early in it's existance.

Sebonack and NGLA will get their chance on the big stage in the next few years.

I think the exposure will be good for golf and golf course architecture.

[Adam Clayman]

Along the lines of Pat's queries.  Are the changes to Sebonack being created by the owner or are Tom and Jack signing off on them?

[Matt_Ward]

For all the people moaning about the changes being put into motion at Sebonack -- how do they justify all the changes that have happened at ANGC - clearly plenty of those changes didn't happen with the permission of Bob Jones and Alister Mackenzie ?

Robert:

Good point about the middle holes -- they are not as strong as the holes that are nearest to the water. But please illuminate for me in what specific ways they are deficient. I am not a fan of the par-3 8th -- never really saw the frontal water hazard as being innovative. But there are plenty of holes in the middle that are far from lackluster in my mind.

[Mark McKeever]

Isnt the pond on 8 something that Nicklaus wanted and not Doak?

Mark

[Gene Greco]

           Indeed, we have an embarrassment of riches in terms of great golf here in Southampton.

For those who haven't played Sebonack an opportunity to do so will present itself in 2011. Thanks to the powers that be at Sebonack ( Mr Pascucci and Mark Hissey) the local Lions Club, of which I am a member, will host a fund raising event next year.

The cost will be comparable to an unescorted fee and will include lunch, golf, caddie, cocktails and hor d'oeurves on the porch in back of the clubhouse overlooking Peconic Bay.

If interested drop me an IM which includes your email and I will keep you informed as to the date, time, etc.

[Patrick_Mucci]

For all the people moaning about the changes being put into motion at Sebonack -- how do they justify all the changes that have happened at ANGC - clearly plenty of those changes didn't happen with the permission of Bob Jones and Alister Mackenzie ?

Matt,

I hope you're not going to equate changes made in the first 4 years at Sebonack with changes made over 77 years at ANGC, a course that conducts a Major Tournament for PGA Tour Pros every spring.

The degree of MacKenzie's involvement at ANGC, from the very begining, has been questioned.
Jones and Roberts were the powers that cleared any changes during their reigns.

Robert:

Good point about the middle holes -- they are not as strong as the holes that are nearest to the water. But please illuminate for me in what specific ways they are deficient. I am not a fan of the par-3 8th -- never really saw the frontal water hazard as being innovative. But there are plenty of holes in the middle that are far from lackluster in my mind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gene,

What's the date ?  ?  ?

           Indeed, we have an embarrassment of riches in terms of great golf here in Southampton.

For those who haven't played Sebonack an opportunity to do so will present itself in 2011. Thanks to the powers that be at Sebonack ( Mr Pascucci and Mark Hissey) the local Lions Club, of which I am a member, will host a fund raising event next year.

The cost will be comparable to an unescorted fee and will include lunch, golf, caddie, cocktails and hor d'oeurves on the porch in back of the clubhouse overlooking Peconic Bay.

If interested drop me an IM which includes your email and I will keep you informed as to the date, time, etc.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Changes were made to ANGC very shortly after it opened.

I have no issue when places make changes -- provided they are improvements from what was there previously.

The issue for Sebonack is that it lies next to NGLA and Shinnecock Hills. Tough to differentiate oneself from such a grouping.

Like I said -- I see no reason why the course cannot be rated slightly higher than GD has it now.

[Gene Greco]

Gene,

What's the date ?  ?  ?

           Indeed, we have an embarrassment of riches in terms of great golf here in Southampton.

For those who haven't played Sebonack an opportunity to do so will present itself in 2011. Thanks to the powers that be at Sebonack ( Mr Pascucci and Mark Hissey) the local Lions Club, of which I am a member, will host a fund raising event next year.

The cost will be comparable to an unescorted fee and will include lunch, golf, caddie, cocktails and hor d'oeurves on the porch in back of the clubhouse overlooking Peconic Bay.

If interested drop me an IM which includes your email and I will keep you informed as to the date, time, etc.

It is sometime in May.

When I am able to contact the tournament planner and he has a definitive date and time I will post it.

He's presently at Boca Rio taking hourly wind readings in preparation for Santa's excursion.

I previously had mentioned to him that you would the only other individual privvy to this vital information. Upon your arrival in Florida you may contact him.

His name is "Beeks."

[Adam Clayman]

Matt. Who is moaning about the changes?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gene,

What's the date ?  ?  ?

           Indeed, we have an embarrassment of riches in terms of great golf here in Southampton.

For those who haven't played Sebonack an opportunity to do so will present itself in 2011. Thanks to the powers that be at Sebonack ( Mr Pascucci and Mark Hissey) the local Lions Club, of which I am a member, will host a fund raising event next year.

The cost will be comparable to an unescorted fee and will include lunch, golf, caddie, cocktails and hor d'oeurves on the porch in back of the clubhouse overlooking Peconic Bay.

If interested drop me an IM which includes your email and I will keep you informed as to the date, time, etc.

It is sometime in May.

When I am able to contact the tournament planner and he has a definitive date and time I will post it.

He's presently at Boca Rio taking hourly wind readings in preparation for Santa's excursion.

I previously had mentioned to him that you would the only other individual privvy to this vital information. Upon your arrival in Florida you may contact him.

His name is "Beeks."

Gene,

If only you would have told me earlier, I could have saved him the effort.

I already have the wind readings in 15 minute intervals

I could also have told him that he's wasting his time.

And, after Madoff got done with Boca Rio, outsiders, including Santa are no longer welcome

[Jeff Evagues]

The Long Island Golf Assoc. is having their Caddie Scholarship Fund outing at Sebonack in 2011; I believe on Oct. 11. Check their website for more info. longislandgolf.org