Sebonack - Underrated at #39 (GD)

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I had the chance to play Sebonack in the morning and NGLA in the afternoon on 10/7 with Mike Cirba and a lifelong friend, Brad Serton.  We went in expecting to be impressed by NGLA (which we were!) but Sebonack simply shocked all three of us.  I knew Sebonack was good, but frankly I am surprised more on GCA don't include it on the short list of truly great courses.  I have played a number of the stalwarts in NY/NJ area (Shinny, NGLA, Fishers, Bethpage, WF, PV etc.) and Sebonack clearly belongs in that group, and not at the end of the list.  It is currently ranked #39 for Golf Digest and I only think that ranking will move up over time.  Something in the low teens is not out of the question.

I have never been on a course so naturally beautiful.  The trees are magnificent, wildlife, panaromic views of the bay and the beaches... frankly it could have been a nature preserve and I would have paid just to walk the property.  The golf course is seamlessly integrated into its surroundings and it augments the beauty of the property.  You can also see the influences of Cypress, PV, RM and others as you walk along.  I particularly liked the conjoined fairway of #2, #3 and #18.  Drop me in the second fairway with a bucket of balls and you might never hear from me again.  The course is also not just a pretty face as it requires precision off the tee and on the approaches to score well, with a variety of options to choose from.  Resistance to Scoring?  The back tees play in 77/151 range.

It is pure speculation but I think the publicity around the opening of the Bandon courses and Tom's courses overseas (Kidnappers, Barnbougle, etc.) have really diverted attention from Sebonack, along with the highly private nature of the club.  I have a feeling people will start focusing on it more when the Women's Open comes there in 2013.  Talk about a course made for HD/1080p!

Finally, the course is certainly not above criticism.  Both Mike and I agreed that the 8th hole (par 3 over a pond) was the only weak link in the routing.  The hole reminds me more of one you would find on a Florida resort course and I think the bland shape/location of the pond contributes to it... Sebonack flows so naturally and your eye immediately picks up that is a man made hazard.  I'm not sure what can be done but I know Mr. Pascucci and the Doak/Nicklaus team will continue to tweak things to try and get the course just right.

If you can ever find a way to play Sebonack, treat the invitation like it was a top 10 club and find a way to go!

[Mike Cirba]

Geoffrey,

I had intended to start a thread this week provocatively titled, "Sebonack - Are you Freakin' Kidding Me??!?", but you've beat me to the punch.

The golf course was astonishing, a viscerally moving emotional experience, and I had tears in my eyes and chills down my spine at times during the day from the profoundness of the experience.

I don't know how better to express exactly how special this golf course is.

[JR Potts]

The golf course was astonishing, a viscerally moving emotional experience, and I had tears in my eyes and chills down my spine at times during the day from the profoundness of the experience.

Glad to hear it's great and I hope to play it one day but jeez Mike, you need to get out more.

Tears and chills?  Were you scattering ashes out there?

[Mike Cirba]

Ryan,

I'll tell you what, man.    I've played 835 courses in 32 states and a number of countries including most of the Top 50 or so in this country and I was absolutely blown away.

It was like watching a symphony where almost every note was dead solid perfect and it was a thing of intense beauty with so many competing factors and elements coming together in multi-layered blends of staggering inspiration.

If a man can't get emotional over that it's time to spread ashes indeed.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I think Mike's tears and chills were directly related to his performance at the bar the night before during Halladay's no-hitter... 

[Carl Nichols]

Don't you think it's partly attributable to being the nouveau riche kid on the block?

[Mike Cirba]

Geoffrey,

That was earlier in the round.   Where the hell were you while the fetching bartender next door was feeding me drinks?  

By the 8th hole the storm had passed, and the emotions that flowed from that point were profound and genuine.

[Mike Cirba]

Don't you think it's partly attributable to being the nouveau riche kid on the block?

Carl,

I could frankly give a crap about that pretentious nonsense.  

That doesn't impress me at all and I've played any number of ultra-exclusive courses where gazillions were spent in building a course that left me cold.

Sebonack does not pale against its established neighbors as a great golf course.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Sebonack is a really really good course, but its not perfect.

39 is probably appropriate in my mind. How man courses labeled NY or DOAK do you really think are going to find their way into the top-20? These publications wont let that happen.

You are %100 on the property... It was like nothing I had ever seen in terms of beauty. Lots of red tape due to env constraints though.

Resistance to scoring.. Yeah

You point out 8. Was there grass on #14 green? They were plugging scalp marks from mowers with old pins about 6-8 weeks ago...

... my full review is on my blog

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I certainly agree wholeheartedly with Mike's thoughts.  I was so touched by the round that I literally just sat down on the cliff next to the 18th green just to make sure I soaked it all in before I left.

The only way the "new money" angle fits in is that I think some discount Sebonack because they think someone was just trying to copy Shinny or NGLA because they couldn't gain access to those clubs.  Nothing could be further from the truth... The course is remarkably different from the other two even though all three are contiguous parcels.  Sebonack defintely holds its own based purely upon the merits of the routing/course.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Jaeger - the new green on 14 was grown in and rolled well.  There is talk they will soften that green a little which doesn't seem unreasonable but I rather like the green.  However, I was just over that green in 2 and walked away with a 6!

[Mike Cirba]

Jaeger,

That's a very good review and I agree with most of it.

I simply would add in that I was blown away by other holes you didn't mention, such as the 10th.

[J_ Crisham]

I also had the good fortune to play Sebonack  after a morning round at NGLA 3 weeks ago.  Played Shinny the next day and Garden City the final day. I would rate Shinny as the best by a whisker over NGLA. Sebonack also greatly impressed me but being next door to the other tracks is pretty stiff competition. My guess is that it should be top 5 modern and probably top 20-25 overall. The 14th green was the only glaring weakness in an otherwise fantastic track. My favorite hole at Sebonack was the 2nd. Back right pin placement-what a great hole. This is like arguing who is the ugliest gal in the MS Universe contest- they are all awesome , just different appeals for each of us.                                             Jack

[Jim Colton]

One of the things that impressed me most with Sebonack was its ability to be both this brutally tough, USGA-loving penal test from the tips and still be a fun and sporty course from the members tees.  Off the top of my head, I can't think of a more pleasant walking course of the 300+ I've played.

I'm probably more in Jaeger's camp than the Walsh/Cirba camp, although I agree those holes close to the clubhouse are fantastic.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Geoffrey - Thats what bothered me so much! That it is such an easy fix... expensive, but easy... I just wanted to go grab my dozer and do it myself right there on the spot!

Mike - Thanks. #10 was one of my favorites too. Sometimes you cant mention everything. Standing on the tee having never been to Cypress or having played any Mackenzie, all I could think about was old photos of Cypress bunkers and italicized captions with the words active camouflage.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Longterm, Sebonack has the potential to reach elite architectural greatness status.  At this time, there is quite a bit of tweeking needed.  As you pointed out, the eighth is very weak.  The seventh seems forced.  And the 9th is a Nicklaus par 5 that has been repeated numerous times with Doak style bunkering.  In addition, the 2nd green is great in concept but way too severe.  In a 1 club south wind, I witnessed 2 chip and runs at trickle speed get blown into the right bunker.  In the same round, a well struck 6 iron on 17 landed 6 inches on the green over the right bunker for a semi-back right pin, just missed the stick on the high bounce and finished over the back bunker down in the foliage.   The 17th green needs to be reworked so that a reasonable play can exist for keeping the ball out of a hazard in a 1 club south wind.  When the greens are firm, which is awesome, this hole does not give a reasonable chance to hold the green, even when playing away from a pin.  After seeing the huge bounce, I played away from the flag and was on the back left fringe having barely carried the front bunker--as for playing caliber, I shot 73 from the tips in a fairly substantial nassau at 7 ways.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Jim - You are right... the Walk is A++

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Jaeger - the new green on 14 was grown in and rolled well.  There is talk they will soften that green a little which doesn't seem unreasonable but I rather like the green.  However, I was just over that green in 2 and walked away with a 6!

I thought the new green on 14 was a joke.  It was an ugly, distracting scar on what was an otherwise wonderful course.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I can't explain it but Sebonack has an artistic element that touched me in a way the other two didn't.  I can't explain it any other way but I wish I could give this forum more than that.

In addition, let's all remember that Shinny and NGLA have had 100 years to iron out the kinks.  I have no doubt Sebonack will continue to evolve and get better with time.

I also agree on the playability of the course which still challenging from the tips.  It is the most elastic course that I have ever played.

[Tim Bert]

The golf course was astonishing, a viscerally moving emotional experience, and I had tears in my eyes and chills down my spine at times during the day from the profoundness of the experience.

Glad to hear it's great and I hope to play it one day but jeez Mike, you need to get out more.

Tears and chills?  Were you scattering ashes out there?

I was going to speculate that it must have been 35 degrees when they played!  

I think I've heard more stories in the past 6 weeks from people that have played Sebonack than I have Bandon.  From the number of players coming out of the woodwork on this thread, you'd think it was a muni!

[Carl Nichols]

Mike, Geoffrey-
I wasn't suggesting that people were right to (possibly) have the thoughts I mentioned, only that I suspect it may occur. And for the record, the only courses on L.I. that I've played are Bethpage Black and Montouk Downs.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Robert - #9 is actually the Doak/Nicklaus version of a Tillinghast hole. I think I read in Building Sebonack that it was based on Bethpage Black #4 in the spirit of LawnGuyland!

Geoffrey - Funny you mention elasticity... guess which Colorado golf course Mr. Doak was building at the same time that is often mentioned as the model for course set up

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Jaeger - I'd love to see Ballyneal... It is on the short list for 2011 and I'd love to compare the two since they were built around the same time.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Geoffrey - Remember the 2010 wish list thread? Sebonack was on mine... hope it works out as well for you in 2011!

[Ryan Farrow]

I was a lot more impressed with Friars head then Sebonack, don't feel that the course is in the same league as Pacific, Old Mac and Rock Creek though....

Something about it just doesn't feel right. Given the site, I just think it could have been better. It felt fake to me. But not sure why, maybe visiting NGLA right before hand didn't help. Still a really good course. Ill try to expand later.

Would be interesting to note from those who have been to both courses, Sebonack or Friar's Head?