Sebonack - Underrated at #39 (GD)

[Gene Greco]

May 24th is confirmed as the date the Southampton Lions Club will host the tourney at Sebonack.

830  range
900  continental breakfast
1000 golf
230 lunch

includes cart and caddie fees
$650

Im if you are interested.

[Mac Plumart]

Agreed.  I love that course.  Fun and thrilling golf.

[Michael Whitaker]

Sebonack is a fantastic course... but, you have to scratch your head about #8 (the par 3 over the pond) and #14 with its bizarre green. And, I can see where #17, the long par 3 with a ball buster green, would exasperate a lot of golfers... especially that late in the round.

Brian and Mac... you guys seem to retain a better memory courses after one or two plays. How many times does one have to hit an uphill shot, or at least a shot at a target above your head? Felt like a lot to me, but my memory isn't as sharp as it used to be. Walk me through it.

[Keith OHalloran]

Brian,
You have had quite a week of golf. Do you feel that Sebonack is particularly underrated? If so,where would you rank it? Where would you rank it within your current trip?

[michael damico]

coming from the mouth of an 'uneducated', young 'student of the game'/profession, (as well as an admirer of Renaissance and their work) I believe Sebonack should not even be constructed on the same land adjacent to Shinne and NGLA. (I know that I am running the risk of being "that guy", and later on in life I will probably regret saying this, but...) It should be constructed somewhere in the 'sandhills' of NJ instead of such a prime location on the southern coast (bays) of LI.

It was a hodgepodge of ideas/ideals, constructed on a GREAT piece of property, located within, what? 50 miles of one of the largest urban cores of the world? In my (humble and 'uneducated') opinion, it may be one of the most overrated courses in the last 25 years.

Friar's Head (which I also downplay, but only after seeing Sand Hills prior to playing) is far superior to that which is Sebonack.

As Mr. Mucci states, NGLA and Sebonack will be in the spotlight in the forthcoming years, of which, I will predict that Sebonack receives more praise from many golf writers, editors and public outlets than NGLA. This is completely false! There is nothing at Sebonack that outweighs the intricacies, nuances and strategic elements implemented at the National. Yet, the media will portray Sebonack as a 'modern gem'.

I LOVE Tom and his entire team; they are amazing people and each one has dedicated their lives to the game and the profession, but Sebonack is NOT underrated...IMHO

Returning back to the original post, I believe that Sebonack should post higher than WF and Bethpage, but well behind the rest of the aforementioned 'stalwarts'.

[Ryan Farrow]

coming from the mouth of an 'uneducated', young 'student of the game'/profession, (as well as an admirer of Renaissance and their work) I believe Sebonack should not even be constructed on the same land adjacent to Shinne and NGLA. (I know that I am running the risk of being "that guy", and later on in life I will probably regret saying this, but...) It should be constructed somewhere in the 'sandhills' of NJ instead of such a prime location on the southern coast (bays) of LI.

It was a hodgepodge of ideas/ideals, constructed on a GREAT piece of property, located within, what? 50 miles of one of the largest urban cores of the world? In my (humble and 'uneducated') opinion, it may be one of the most overrated courses in the last 25 years.

Friar's Head (which I also downplay, but only after seeing Sand Hills prior to playing) is far superior to that which is Sebonack.

As Mr. Mucci states, NGLA and Sebonack will be in the spotlight in the forthcoming years, of which, I will predict that Sebonack receives more praise from many golf writers, editors and public outlets than NGLA. This is completely false! There is nothing at Sebonack that outweighs the intricacies, nuances and strategic elements implemented at the National. Yet, the media will portray Sebonack as a 'modern gem'.

I LOVE Tom and his entire team; they are amazing people and each one has dedicated their lives to the game and the profession, but Sebonack is NOT underrated...IMHO

Returning back to the original post, I believe that Sebonack should post higher than WF and Bethpage, but well behind the rest of the aforementioned 'stalwarts'.

Michael, I agree with you that the course is overrated, but to say it never should have been built there is a bit absurd. NGLA and Shinny are 2 of the greatest courses ever built, chances are, that course was not going to be as good, or even in the same league. I understand what you are saying and half agree, but I didn't expect a trifecta.

[Jud_T]

The channeling Sean Arble post:

1 round of 50% Doak at Sebonack or 30 rounds of 100% at Quail Crossing?  Just saying...

[Ryan Farrow]

Brian, NGLA conditions are ideal, you must have caught it on a bad day.

[Keith OHalloran]

Brian, perhaps this is the beauty and the downside of golf course ratings? The beauty is that one man's Sebonack may be another's Firar's Head, and vice versa. It would be very hard to argue one is wrong. The personal nature of evaluation has to come into play, and you may like someting that I don't.
On the other hand, this is the downside as well. It is too subjective, and based on too many outside influences. If you did indeed plug a ball on the Alps (which I have no reason to doubt) you must have played on a particularly wet day. I have been lucky enough to play NGLA several times, and have never seen a plugged ball. It is entirely possible that you will judge NGLA based upon a day that is very unusual for it in terms of play. This is not even getting into the personal feeling in regard to hitting the ball well, being treated well etc. As I said, there are good sides and bad sides in the "science" of rating.
As for not loving Shinnecock the first time you played it, I have no explanation there! 

[Mark Hissey]

Keith,

Is it underrated? I'll need to come back to you on that after some more thought but I think hands down this should have a guaranteed spot in the World top 100 - whichever publication has that list. I have heard folk refer to "ideal maintenance melds" and the like in reference to NGLA - now I would use that term to describe Sebonack much more readily than the National. I hit a 4 iron to the Alps hole at National with my second shot - struck it well and it plugged short of the green. Don't get me wrong, I think National is phenomenal, but in order for these fantastic design concepts to fully be exploited, you need turf / grasses / firmness similar to that at Sebonack - I have heard virtually noone make this point about the relative softness at other courses in the area - maybe they don't feel it's crucial - I do, personally - but it is all subjective. I would also say that I am a subscriber to Doak's principles that if you hit a crooked one, you will almost certainly find your ball, but the green complexes / bunkering will provide the defence. At some other courses in the area, you will find yourself wading through knee high fescue. Although I would say that the caddies mentioned the undergrowth had been cleared out recently with a view to it growing back even thicker than before for the ladies open - that kinda disappointed me, but maybe I misunderstood what he was saying.

Mike, the little par 3 - I have no problem with it just because it is over water - it has a cool little green and is a short enough hole that folk won't be dunking it in the water every day. I think it provides a nice bit of visual variety. As for uphill shots, yes there are quite a few but the ground game is there so it's about controlling trajectory - you can bump it into those upslopes and the ball won't snag so it's not a case needing to hit on the front edge of a rock hard green or else your down the bottom of a hill.

As for my favourite courses of the trip. That's hard. I think National and Friar's Head. Which do I most want to play again? The National. Which did I really LOVE (and by love I don't mean by entering numbers into an equation / evaluating strategy etc, I mean something intangible) the most first time around - Friar's - but I wonder after many multiple plays (not gonna happen!) would I feel the same? Maybe not.

Shinny was superb, I am just not in love with it (yet, after one play). As to where Sebonack sits in relation to Friar's in terms of number of plays - I would say 7 plays FH, 3 to Sebonack. I basically think that all of these courses belong in the same conversation rather than necessarily saying the likes of National and Shinny are in a different league, excellent though they are. They all offer something different and unique. But I will say this - my opinion might dramatically change after many additional further plays.

There are no plans whatsoever to grow the undergrowth thicker. We have been deliberately trying to improve airflow around the course in order to improve turf conditions. An endless quest for us.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Bump.  I still feel the same about this course.

[Charlie_Bell]

I was under-aware of Sebonack until I started watching the coverage on Thursday.  I immediately phoned my golf buddy to tell him to turn on his TV immediately -- ".... too hard to describe just how beautiful and interesting it is."   He has circled the world as a video-jock for pro golf & tennis, and he has played most of the best courses -- but, boy, does it look spectacular..

[John Kirk]

It is so nice for our friend Tom Doak to have his course, designed with the great Jack Nicklaus, presented so beautifully this weekend.  Congrats to Garret Boddington for course conditioning and beautiful bunker presentation.  Congratulations also to Tom for what I believe is his first major tournament.  It looks spectacular.

Meanwhile, Inbee Park is making mince meat of the competition.  Great to see a player with an idiosyncratic swing dominate.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Kirk,

I think the club employed mats similar to what TOC employed in order to present pristine conditions.

It'll be interesting to see how they set up the cameras when televising the Walker Cup.

I think the caddy lining up putts from behind the golfer should be the next to go.

One announcer declared 11.9 on the Stimp on Thursday or Friday, with one I believe, predicting 13 on the weekend.
I found that hard to believe.

The "appearingly" slow swing seems counter intuitive when it comes to distance

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

I'd agree.

I've always maintained that generous fairways are the key to enjoyable golf for the broad spectrum of golfers and Sebonack's fairways are generous.

With good to great architecture, generous fairways don't diminish the challenge.
Sebonack is proving that, although some of the greens might be deemed too severe.

As much as I love Newport, they narrowed their fairways for the Women's Open.

I believe that NGLA's fairways will remain generous for the Walker Cup.

The concept of narrowing fairways in order to challenge the best golfers in the world, unfortunately, has a trickle down effect to the local club level, where the quality of the golfers differs dramatically from those competing on a narrowed Open venue.

There's a reason that courses like GCGC and NGLA remain enjoyable to play, yet challenging, 100 years after their creation, and generous width is a key ingredient.