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Matt_Ward

Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2010, 11:47:33 AM »
Jud:

Sounds good -- be sure to include The Knoll / West -- ditto for the 4th nine at Montclair GC in West Orange, NJ.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2010, 03:16:40 PM »
I just finished playing both Forsgate and Knoll West, and saw Essex earlier in the year.

Forsgate, then Essex.  But only because of the conditioning.  But again, it's like chateau briand vs. double porterhouse...big side of mushrooms.  Hobbits love mushrooms.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Noel Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2010, 07:27:48 PM »
Tamarack even with Brian Silva's nice work is not even in the same ball park as Whippoorwill.  The 4th 9 at Montclair was at my last play several years ago bastardized and the banks' nature not too evident.

Mike Hendren- no internal corridors on #9 at Knoll? That green slopes away from you nicely.

I played the Knoll several weeks ago, I thought the best hole was #9 (the knoll hole) and while I liked #18 (the two shot redan) it didnt look like the green was expanded all the way out, I liked what I saw in spots but I am sad to say I expected more out of the course.  There were several treelined holes also that reminded me of playing the 7th at Pasatiempo which is not flattering.  I'm sure George counseled them on this but the property gets very tight.

By far, Whippoorwill is the best Banks (this side of Yale ;)).. Now I'm not sure what remains of Ross there other than the corridors of some of the holes to the east of Whippoorwill road but it is much sportier than 99% of courses I've seen and although George says the greens have changed, they are still damn good and most clubs would be jealous to have them.  I'd rather play the Whip than Winged Foot or Fenway, or any other course in Westchester County, it is that good.  All it needs is a Banks bunker style, while the current scheme is not unattractive, with proper strip bunkering (especially on the short which has a bunker style reminiscent of the old short at Sleepy) it would be a real barnburner.  Ran and I used his match play system to go hole by hole and comparing it to some Met Gems (not the east end of long island) and it beat them all save Yale. Whippoorwill has some damn good greens, the 1st has a nasty slope like the 1st at Plainfield and the Short Hole green is one of the best ones out there.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 07:35:12 PM by NFreeman »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2010, 08:36:22 PM »
Here a couple pics of WW:

Banks looking over the construction



more construction - big time tough property



WW’s Short hole (played from a high tee)



my favorite approach

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2010, 09:40:50 AM »
George, please identify the course:



The right side mounding reminds me of the 12th at Knoll West where mounding to the left of the green is now obscured by the trees.  I really liked that hole, particularly the well placed fairway bunkering.  I assume the trees that obscure the mound remain to provide protection for the snap hook off the 14th tee?

Noel, the 9th green at Knoll West has broader slopes as opposed to the micro-movement so prevalent elsewhere - that was the distinction I was trying to draw.  

Matt, no turf issues noted at Forsgate last week.

A final comment:  I bet the members at Banks' courses were thrilled when Sarazen invented the sand wedge!

Mike
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 09:43:42 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2010, 09:47:31 AM »
The ONLY Charles Banks coure I've played is the one I played regularly as a kid/teenager.  It was a very fun course to play.
Maybe George B. can chime in on the course's evolution.

From the county website:

Francis A. Byrne Golf Course
Pleasant Valley Way, West Orange
Phone # 973-736-2306

HOST COMMUNITY - WEST ORANGE

Course Profile
Francis Byrne Golf Course dates back to 1926, when it was designed as a private country club course by noted golf architect Charles Banks. Through our renovation project, many of the course features have been restored to their classical roots, making Byrne one of the premiere public golf destinations in the state. A number of holes are based on famous courses from Scotland, including the par five 1st hole that is modeled after the Road Hole at St. Andrews.

Among other classic holes on the Byrne Golf Course are the long par three Biarritz 2nd hole that measures well over 200 yards from the championship tee and the short 14th that is similar to the Eden hole that is also found at St. Andrews, as well as many of the best private clubs in the United States.  The back nine at Byrne includes several long par four holes such as the 12th and 15th, the latter of which champion golfer Bobby Jones considered to be one of the most difficult holes in America. 

This beautiful course in West Orange features deep bunkers, hilly topography and rolling greens that combine to create a wonderfully challenging layout that measures nearly 6,800 yards and offers public golfers the rare opportunity to play a course from golf’s Golden Age of Design.


Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2010, 10:46:46 AM »
Mike Hendren,

That's the 7th at Whippoorwill--the hole where "Steamshovel" earned his nickname.

I probably wouldn't be a golfer, much less a participant on this site, were it not for Whippoorwill. So my choice is pretty easy.

Matt_Ward

Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2010, 02:44:04 PM »
Michael Blake:

The former Essex County County Club / West was some layout. Have to say "was" because although the county gov't there has tried to uprgade the layout the key details were stripped out a long time ago. That's unfortunate.

The West had the good to be even better than the East (the private one now) is today. And that's saying something.

Barry Cohen

Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2010, 02:49:58 PM »
If you have not played Tamarack from the back tees in the past 2 years, I would highly recommend getting out and seeing it in it's current condition.  I cannot say enough positive things about the restoration work that our greens committee has completed over the past 5-6 years.  They have been trying to stay true to Silva's recommendations in returning the course to the original specifications while adding some minor enhancements in the Banks' style to offset some of the effects of modern equipment and technology.

The first phase of the restoration involved restoring the greens to their original size and shapes (over the years as much as 3 feet of rough had grown in on some of the edges).  That was completed in 2008 and has brought numerous pin placements back into play that had vanished over the years.  The blue pin on the Biarritz #12 can now be placed above a horseshoe shaped ridge on the center of the back plateau so that it barely appears to be on the (87 yard long) green!  And of course, the edges of the elevated greens now provide no resistance to long or slightly wide shots which will now roll all the way down the often steeply banked edges.

More recent work includes the tree removal plan, which was carried out over many members objections, but which in reality has created better vistas (looking back to the tee after climbing the fairway on the #6 Alps hole is one of the most scenic views on the course), a more true links style feel, and far better sunlight and oxygen for the turf.  In fact, in a tough year for growing grass, the rough and greens both came through this summer very strong.  Funny enough, there was a storm this past April which took down an additional 10-15 trees, one or two which will be missed, but the majority of which were additional help.  The course now looks much more like it did in the original photos with many open vistas and not so many trees along the way.

There were 2 changes which were not part of the original Banks layout.  First was some additional fairway bunkering on holes 2, 4, 5 (a nasty little bunker that catches more than a few almost perfectly struck drives), 8, 10, 16 and 18.  While not quite "Banks"-like in terms of depth, they have added some challenge to many tee shots.  Second, was several back tees added (2, 3, 4 which now plays 495 yards par-4 from the new championship tee, 6, 9 and 18) to lengthen the course to nearly 6800 yards given all the new equipment technology.

So, overall, given the restoration and excellent turf condition, I posit Tamarack as a contender for best Banks course.  Of course, I am somewhat partial, given I am a member, but that also means I can get any of you guys out on the course for an exploratory round!

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2010, 08:40:14 PM »
Michael: What is now Francis Byrne (a true (NJ) “county” course. was once the second course of the Essex County CC (a private club - I know this sounds confusing).

Raynor and Banks designed a 36-hole course for the (private) club (Essex County Country Club). Raynor died just after they broke ground in the fall of 1925 - Banks completed the course. The club thought Banks’ name was certainly not of  “Seth Raynor” stature and they tried to get rid of him early on.

He rebelled, citing they had a contract but he agreed that after he built the East Course according to the Raynor/Banks plans and if they did not like the work he would leave. If they did like his work he would move on and build the West Course (now Francis Byrne).

The West course was my home course for about 17-years before I moved on to The knoll as my home course.

The “West” was an excellent course even though many of the original bunkering had been removed years before. It had all the good bells and whistles of an excellent Raynor/Banks course but once the private club let it go public to help fund the upper course, it was softened to speed up play and all the other things they usually cite. Lost was a great 575-Road hole when they built a public clubhouse in the part of the hole. It then became a ver soft 464-yard par-5

Great match-play course was the West!

Most of the serious gambling in the area was held at a course a few miles away. It has a number of titles but “we” knew it as “Branch Brook”, because it was part of the county park commission property, Branch Brook Park; course is now known as Hendrick’s Field.

Branch Brook was a short course with great greens but a short hitters could kill a better player down there, so when things got heated, the good players insisted the match go up to Essex County West.

The famous 15th hole at the West course was dog-leg left, par-4, a version of Raynor’s Prize Dog-Leg. Even after they took out the first set of cross bunkers, then the second set of cross bunkers (40-yards short of the green), it was still one of the best par-4's in the state.

Bobby Jones scored a 14 on that hole in an exhibition and he always referred to it as one of the best 4's he ever played.(even sans cross bunkers) .......... he got on the wrong side of a line of trees off the tee, which led to the ultimate disastrous score.

My playing partner and I went back to the West course after a few years at the Knoll (this after the county shortened the course), to play and see our old friends. They discouraged us from playing .... like, “remember as it was” .... “RIP“

Needless to say, we left.

That was an excellent course.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Matt_Ward

Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2010, 08:50:35 PM »
Barry:

Happy to take you up on your offer !

Maybe next year a Banks tour can be arranged to settle all bets.

George:

The sad part at FB -- is that holes like #12 were thoroughly compromised when the private club grabbed land near the previous green for paddle ball courts I believe. The tee on the par-4 8th was also compromised. FB could have been something as one of Jersey's best public courses but the overall bunkering and even the greens themselves would need a major overhaul. George, you have done well at The Knoll but the mindset within Essex County requires nothing less than a magician's act to straighten things out there.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2010, 09:56:32 PM »
George Bahto,

I agree with you about the West course being a good course.

I remember my first round there with the three Cestone brothers in 1956-7.

We played the Biarritz from the top tee.

I shot 124.

Victor shot 118 and Jerry and Gaeton were 126 and 128.

However, I wouldn't want to have to certify the scores.

We had our own foursome, Victor was a year older, Jerry my age and Gaeton a year younger.
We were very competitive and improved our golf so that we could beat each other.

Their dad joined The Knoll and we played there occassionally.

We also tried caddying at Essex Fells and Montclair and would sneak onto Montclair whenever we got the chance.
What a great combination of courses to play as a kid.

Montclair would become our home course for the high school golf team, of which we all were members.

Those were great days

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2010, 10:13:44 PM »
Pat, they were some days

and remember some of the players at the west course: Mike the Greek - Al the Butcher with a small canvass walking bag and long sleeved shirts buttoned at the wrist

at Branch Brook - wow - too many characters to name: the pro, Maurie O'Conner (unbeatable) - he took most of Joe Louis' money

Chet Sanok played there - the Muccis - Jim Torrey - Jimmy DiPiro - the Maranos - the "Kook - Hoss Luzzi

this place was right out of Damopn Runyon
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Matt_Ward

Re: Best Charles Banks course?
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2010, 12:31:25 PM »
The sad part about FB is how it could be so much better.

Essex County gov't, to its credit, did assist with the drainage issues tied to the lower portion of the 16th hole -- but the pulling out of bunkers and all the rest has simply left the course as half-shell to what it was.

A pity indeed.

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