Fenway---Smothered by Green Cmte.

[Kevin Pallier]

Mayday

Did you take your camera with you ? I've searched the site but other than Ran's review there isn't much in the line of photo's of Fenway on here ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

In your honor we played the green tees;

That's a 6,230 yard golf course

I think they would consider the greens fairly slow that day ; I didn't find the greens scary in anyway.

Mayday, that's an interesting observation.

Those greens are some of the most frightening greens in golf when they're at pace.
They have a tremendous amount of slope and internal contour.
How can you NOT be scared of them ?
# 2, # 3, # 4, # 5, # 6, # 7, # 8, # 9, # 10, etc., etc.
In fact, can you name a green without contour and/or slope ?

This is why CBM stated that you have to play a course under all conditions.

You need to play the course in the summer when the greens are rolling at 10 or more.

I'd agree that they need to dry the course out, but, those greens are incredibly challenging, as is the golf course.

At par 70, from equivalent distances, many think it's harder than WFW and WFE


Need to start my conference call now.

[mike_malone]

 Kevin,

    The club's website has a load of photos.

     Pat,

       My host was 70+ and wanted to play those tees. I don't have a problem imagining the course being longer. I certainly agree that you need to play a course in all conditions to truly appreciate it. That is why I focused my comments on the conditions. The trees, the narrowed fairways, the rough around the bunkers are there all year long , correct?

  They did not have the slope or rating on the card. My amateur understanding of slope is the difference between a scratch and a bogey golfer. Since there were not many forced carries I imagine the slope is not beyond the 130's. (Edit) I checked the slope; it is in the 130's from the green , blue, and black tees.

    I'm used to playing fast greens. I actually believe that they are easier to putt in some cases once you learn how to gauge them.

        Pat,
 
    When you finally get down to Philly you tell me what you think of Fenway after playing Lancaster, Huntington Valley, Philadelphia Country Club, Lehigh,  Manufacturers, and Rolling Green.

   Compared to these courses , several of which I have played in many conditions and one in all conditions, I assessed Fenway as a modest course. In Philly I see LuLu or Riverton as fine courses comparable to Fenway.

    That course made me appreciate how Flynn's championship courses of the 20's were designed to stand up to today's players.

[mike_malone]

 JC,

    "My maan" is the best. I hope he continues to invite me to play courses with him and allows me my opinions. I hope you have fun at the #3 course in Delaware County, Pa.

[Kyle Harris]

JC,

I hope you have fun at the #3 course in Delaware County, Pa.

Paxon Hollow?

The Lulu comparison is actually quite complimentary in my book. Those greens will give you vertigo when they're at pace.

[mike_malone]

 Kyle,

   It is a compliment. Merion is #3 in Delco and I'll fight anyone who wants the rate it LOWER !

[Jaeger Kovich]

For some reason I always compare Fenway with the East. Obviously Fenway is on relatively severe property, at least in terms of the other 3 Tilly Top-100s on Mamaroneck Rd, thus lending itself to a bit of quirk, which I find plenty of on East.

I really like the WF "lite". Although Fenway has more OB, in my mind it plays easier. I've seen some scary pins at Fenway, but at WF, on those greens, every putt no matter where the pin is scary to me.

Overall I would say that even though I like to compare Fenway with the other 3, none of these courses really are alike. You can tell its the same guy, but the style does vary from site to site, and that is what I like most.

I witnessed one of the most remarkable rounds of golf I have ever seen during the Met PGA Matchplay. During the stoke play round I watched an even par round with 16 pars, 1 bird, 1 bogey.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday,

The reason that you feel the course is narrowed by trees is because you played the green tees at 6,230 and not the Black tees at 6,700.

At 6,700 you won't find it so narrow.

And, those greens are scarey at pace.

You need to play it "in season" when they're fast.

Just look at the scores in the "Mittlemark" an invitational of all of the best amateurs.
That will tell you all you need to know about how "strong" the golf course is.

At 6,700 par 70, I'll bet you, Matt Ward and a host of others, all you want on your individual score relative to your handicap and your best ball of your foursome

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin,

    The club's website has a load of photos.

Mayday

Yet none that are labelled and would help one interested in the context of your comments ?

[mike_malone]

 Pat,

     I'm not interested in how top amateurs play a course . I believe the average golfer would enjoy any classic course better if the conditioning matches the original intent.

[Mark McKeever]

Any pictures Mayday that document the slow death?

Mark

[mike_malone]

 Mark,


    The prevalence of evergreens are proof enough of this death. The club's website has photos which show the rough/bunker issue. The fairway bunkers in the rough prove the fairway narrowing.

    I want to be clear that this is not unique to Fenway. I just felt that there was quite a course hidden underneath these problems.

My favorite course in Philly that I cry when I play is Torresdale/Frankford. It has fabulous ground that is covered by trees but it does not have the rough/bunker problem to the extent of Fenway.


  I just think that the style of Fenway's bunkers accentuated the rough problem because the faces were bulged and the sand was at the bottom. Reduce the rough height and the charm emerges.

[Mark McKeever]

Looking at the Bing Map, its pretty easy to see where the fairways have become narrowed in!

As for the evergreens, Ive seen worse for sure!

Mark

[mike_malone]

 I have seen far worse but these were strategically damaging.

[Mark McKeever]

I guess I would have to play it to understand which trees you're pointing out.  Seems like a travisty though!  The golf course itsself looks like a great track!

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

     I'm not interested in how top amateurs play a course .

That's NOT what you said in your reply # 2, which was, "I don't think I can fairly compare this to any Flynn I have played. They are all more challenging

I believe the average golfer would enjoy any classic course better if the conditioning matches the original intent.

I don't know if mid-October in Westchester is the time to be making evaluations and comparisons.
June, July, August and September might produce far different conclusions.

[mike_malone]

 Pat,

   When I say "challenging" I mean for all golfers. I think the greatest challenges are consistently uneven lies in the fairway , approaches to angled greens, and difficult recovery around the greens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday,

Are the challenges consistent for all golfers when they play NGLA ?

Why would you expect a consistent challenge for golfers with diverse abilities ?

Wouldn't that be unfair or an undue burden for the high handicap golfer ?

Certainly you can't expect a 20 handicap to handle uneven lies with the same aplomb as a 0 handicap, so why would you expect a golf course to present a consistent challenge for all golfers ?

Shouldn't the challenge be graded..... incrementally, based on ability ?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Might be possible that a 2nd visit to Fenway would elicit a different reaction.

I have played all the Phila courses you mentioned and while a few were very good and deserve even more fanfare -- HV being one of them. There are a few others that are good but not worthy of national attention.

Might be possible that being from Phila you come to the table with a NYC bent -- anti that is.

Mike, what was missing from Fenway that you heard from others or saw written about here or elsewhere?

[mike_malone]

 Pat,

    I didn't say the challenge should be consistent. I said the uneven lies were consistent. The beauty of a great course is they challenge all grades of golfers but in different ways.

  Matt,

    I'm of the opinion that NY has the bias in these rankings.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Without further elaboration your statement is nothing more than a quick throw-away line.

In my years of playing courses in the metro NYC area I don't doubt there are courses which have gained national status that are a bit overrated and likely deserve to come down a peg or two.

However ...

I can name a few others that get very little attention because the air gets sucked out of the bottle when top courses are mentioned. Put some of these same courses elsewhere and the probability that they would be noticed would grow very much.

Mike, I asked a few questions in my last post -- you tapdanced around them. Still waiting ...

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

  A second play has never changed my initial feel for a course. Repeated plays have added specific things but never changed my opinion. My focus  in this topic has been on the maintenance practices here. I do think I may feel differently if they changed those to reveal the course. Absent that I can only say what I saw----a classic course hidden by the green cmte. Here in Philly the best comparable situation is Torresdale/Frankford. It would compare quite favorably with Fenway and it suffers mightily from green cmte. interference. Since, I have played there often  I can see through the trees to the original intent. I also have seen early aerials and designs that show the early course in its brilliance. I asked whether there was an early photo of Fenway to study. The member did not know of any.

   Plainfield, which I know you love, impressed me tremendously. I called it the best PRESENTED parkland course I had ever seen. There they revealed all the charm. I can see why it hovers in the 20's in the Golfweek ratings. I'm fairly clear that Fenway does not compare well to the 4/5 Flynns that trail it on the Golfweek list.

  BPB WFW were other courses that made me scratch my head about the NY bias.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

You have to tell me specifically what makes BPB and WFW overrated in your mind.

WF/W doesn't have the terrain but there is no weak hole there -- the Tillie design is his strongest in my mind and frankly the course didn't need to extend even more length to "protect" the course. Some of the toughest greens you can find are right there.

Mike, NYC metro has some overrated courses but take a look at places like Essex County CC, check out Forsgate / Banks, tro name just two.

If you want overrated try the likes of Maidstone -- but if you want a layout that should get more attention -- try the likes of Sebonack.

[mike_malone]

 Matt.

    This is about Fenway so I won't get into WFW/BPB specifics here. I started threads on both courses where I made my case. These can be found by searching the site.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

You opened the can of worms when you said other courses in NYCmetro area are no less overrated than Fenway. I beg to different and have provided specs to counter that claim.

Phila has a number of fine courses -- however -- realize that only a very small handful would make a top 100 listing of all american courses in my mind. I never opined that Fenway is a top usa 100 course.