To Design a Golf Course at The Home of Golf….

[Mark Pearce]

Melvyn,

I think by now we all know your views on the Castle Course.  Two questions arise in my mind that require answers from you:

1)  have you ever played the course or, if not, have you walked it; and

2)  if you would not have chosen that site for a 7th course at St Andrews, where would you have chosen for that course?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark

In answer to your two questions

1)   No never played it. But spent sometime over numerous visits to St Andrews checking out the course prior to its opening.  My mood changed from disbelief when I heard a course was to be built on the site, to anger when I saw the destruction of the land laid out before me. It was one of the reasons why I have become so concerned about selecting the right site for a golf course, my Land Fit For Purpose posts.
I have no opinion on the 5th or 6th so called St Andrews courses. They represent that part of the modern game which seems dead from the neck upwards.  What can one say about soulless courses apart from identifying their presence.
The Links Trust seem to have forgotten the quality of the first four courses, perhaps it their proximity to the town or each other, but they do, I believe shout ‘Golf Course’, something the last three totally fail to do. Perhaps expectations were high regards the hype around the new 7th course but to see the utter destruction of the land (albeit farmland) prior to construction all these fake hills and dells. Do the contours flow to the adjoining land, no, suddenly you are back into farm land. Because some can build a helter skelter course on flat , perhaps slightly sloping to the sea farm land does not mean that it’s a good course. Some have already stated that they like the course due to its views and undulations, yet the whole course is a total fake, there is nothing there that inspired the course being place there or in its design – they destroyed everything in the construction process. The Home of Golf and all they could come up with is fake after fake. Do not know about you Mark but that’s part of my family and St Andrews heritage being washed down the plug hole.
My early fear was that The Links Trust were considering calling it after Old Tom due to the pending Centenary of his Death in 2008, thank God they called it the Castle.

2)   What makes you think a 7th Course was needed let alone required, after all have we not got enough course in this region. I feel that there was no need for another course, but others know better so they throw millions of public money at a site,  Instead of trying to keep in line with the Home of Golf courses we are given this Disneyland course that still need work to put it right.  Say’s a lot for Scottish Golf and the Home of Golf, seems that we desperately need Old Tom back to sprinkle his magic – a new course when one was not needed is bad enough but to produce a total fake (not reproduction but 100% fake) in the heart of the Home of Golf and you wonder why I am unhappy. The Centre of the Golfing Worlds and the Links Trust commission a fake course on unsuitable land outside of town – what sort of message is that Mark to send to the world.
 
Hope I have answered your questions. There is one thing that has come out of the Castle Course and that is the question should we allow our natural landscape to be destroyed in this way. I understand its mainly for drainage but there must be a better way, sooner or later the environmental and financial pressures may force a total rethink on our construction methods. Perhaps my comments Land Fit For Purpose is not after all dead and buried and may persuade clients to be more selective in future.


Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

There is no doubting Melvyn's passion.

For those who have read the book about the planning and building the Castle course, is there good discussion or analysis of the need for a seventh course?  Just curious....

[Mark Pearce]

Melvyn,

I think we all agree that the land was farmland before its use for the course.  And had been for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years.  Safe to say, I think, that it had, therefore, been significantly altered from its "natural" state well before the Links Trust set their eyes on it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Melvyn,

I don't think you can accuse the trust or others of having financial motives over "pure ones" based on you demanding fees for your opinons.  That struck me as kind of two faced, to be honest, even if you were half joking.

[Michael Dugger]

Melvyn,

I don't think you can accuse the trust or others of having financial motives over "pure ones" based on you demanding fees for your opinons.  That struck me as kind of two faced, to be honest, even if you were half joking.

Well, Jeff, it's not like his opinion is worth a nickel.

Melvyn reminds me of the story Mackenzie told about how he got his greens so lumpy.

[Jeff_Brauer]

MD,

I wasn't really trying to wedge in a discouraging word.  As I re-read this thread there are a few different items Melvyn is going after here.  He only briefly hinted that the town should be very altruistic in pursing the golf course, not go after the money.  Yet, if he were to be asked, demanding fees just didn't sound as if he followed the altruistic model himself.  (to be fair, I don't think anyone should, but then, it seems odd that they might demand it of others)

There is some real discussion to be had as to whether the Castle Course has "soul" or is over designed.  Melvyn did choose to bring bigger picture issues to it as well, regarding site selection, profit motives, etc.  No problem with any of it, but I think the discussion most readily lends itself to the "soul" and "shaping" aspects. 

[Tom_Doak]

What would the land have looked like pre-farming? Soft rolling dunes?

Doubtful, since the land was mostly clay.

[Tom_Doak]

    I would imagine The Castle Course was the most anticipated course in some time,so it would difficult to design something at "The Home of Golf" that would measure up to the hype.I think the over the top greens were a result of people saying Pac Dunes greens were better than the Bandon Dunes greens because they had more movement.In the book DREAM GOLF DMK hints that idea.

   Anthony

Anthony,

I have not read this book, but until you quote me the passage I don't think it is fair to say this about David's motivations ... or about our work for that matter.

[Tom_Doak]

I do agree with Melvyn's opinion that the motivations of the Links Trust for building the new course were less than pure.  They were obviously jealous of the success of Kingsbarns and the fact that it was siphoning away the green fee $ of visitors who were in town for 2-3 days trying to get on The Old Course, and apparently thought they could just go out and intercept that business by building a fancy new course closer to town.  

In fact, I did hear people involved with both the Castle course and with Castle Stuart (but NOT the architects in either instance) talk about how they were going to build something much better than Kingsbarns.  To me that is setting yourself up for a fall.  We never said that about Bandon Dunes when we were building Pacific ... nor about any of our neighbors (old or new) while working at The Renaissance Club.  Our goal was only to do our best work on the piece of ground we had.  But, that's the problem with shooting for the moon on a totally created project, you can't set a reasonable goal for it.

[Adam Lawrence]

The stated reason for building the Castle is a dramatic increase in play by locals, driven by the cheapness of the Links ticket and the fact that when a house comes up for sale in St Andrews it will often be bought an incomer who plays golf, thus increasing pressure on the availability of the Links.

You can take this at face value or dismiss is as PR spin, but it has been the consistent message from the Links Trust ever since they started building the Castle.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam,

So what is the deal for the locals at the Castle Course?  Do they have to pay any premium on the annual links pass?

[Adam Lawrence]

No, it's included. £170 for unlimited access to all seven courses this year (subject to being able to get on the Old course obviously). And you get on Kingsbarns for a vastly reduced price too, I think £25. Even with the St Andrews property premium, it's a shoo-in for the title of Best Deal in Golf.

[Tom_Doak]

Good for them.  But, do you really think the Links Trust's mandate to David was simply to build a course that would be fun for the locals??

[Adam Lawrence]

No, I don't - I personally think the PR about local usage was at least in part spin because they knew they'd face allegations of cashing in and wanted to deflect them. However, that _has_ been their position throughout the project.

I also think that much of the criticism of the Castle has come from one-hit players, and that the course's charm is revealed over time as you learn more about where to go and where not to (this is hypothesis on my part, as I haven't played it enough).

I asked Paul Kimber recently if he regretted anything they'd done on the Castle. He wouldn't answer directly but he did say that he thinks David slightly regrets telling him and the crew that the first greens they shaped were too gentle.

[Tom_Doak]

I agree with you that some of the features of the course that are criticized are things that a regular player would not mind, I.e. "You have to hit your approach shots away from the flags.". You could say THAT about The Old Course. 

Still, when you are spending millions to create quirk, it's pretty dangerous to go so far that a significant percentage of players might never come back again to learn the subtleties.

[Eric Smith]

But, that's the problem with shooting for the moon on a totally created project, you can't set a reasonable goal for it.

Tom,

It's funny you mention the moon because in Scott Gummer's book he writes:

To Kidd, the only other place that maybe, just maybe, might present such a once-in-any-lifetime opportunity
 to create something special and lasting was the moon.  One problem with the moon is the lack of pubs.

[Gary Slatter]

Good for them.  But, do you really think the Links Trust's mandate to David was simply to build a course that would be fun for the locals??

The "mandate" that I heard the most pre-opening is "the Castle Course will take some of the pressure off the demand for the Old Course".  It wasn't necessarily intended to compete with Kingsbarns.  In 2007 "locals" could play at Kingbarns for 15 pounds, 288 took advantage of this.

The annual Links Ticket is slightly less if you don't play the Old or the Castle, it's still a great deal and there is seldom a problem for a local ticket holder to get on the Old (and never a problem playing Castle).  Local ticket holders can take advantage of "local" times on the Old, through their local club memberships (R&A, St Andrew's Club, New Club, St Rules, etc.)  These local times are not published and you need to be local for a few years before you can figure them out!

[Niall C]

I agree with you that some of the features of the course that are criticized are things that a regular player would not mind, I.e. "You have to hit your approach shots away from the flags.". You could say THAT about The Old Course. 

Still, when you are spending millions to create quirk, it's pretty dangerous to go so far that a significant percentage of players might never come back again to learn the subtleties.

Tom

I don't know anyone who has played it more than a couple of times but would suggest that is down to the cost of the green fee. It is definitely in the once in a lifetime bracket for most ordinary mortals.

Niall

[Michael Dugger]

Tom

I don't know anyone who has played it more than a couple of times but would suggest that is down to the cost of the green fee. It is definitely in the once in a lifetime bracket for most ordinary mortals.

Niall

I don't doubt the above statement is true, but dang, seems this same rationale could be applied to a TON of other resort style, "one hitter" type of courses. 

After all, someone else mentioned earlier that what the one time player is really looking for is great views! 

In that regard, the location of the Castle Course has to be considered a good decision.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jeff

Not certain what you are saying in your reply# 54 but if it is my reference to Michael in my reply# 46 about paying me a fee then that was a total joke.

Melvyn

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom

I don't know anyone who has played it more than a couple of times but would suggest that is down to the cost of the green fee. It is definitely in the once in a lifetime bracket for most ordinary mortals.

Niall

I don't doubt the above statement is true, but dang, seems this same rationale could be applied to a TON of other resort style, "one hitter" type of courses. 

After all, someone else mentioned earlier that what the one time player is really looking for is great views! 

In that regard, the location of the Castle Course has to be considered a good decision.

A party from our club played Castle, Kingsbarns and TOC.... guess which one they thought was third best! Yes TOC, in fact a few of them thought it was pretty crap and all hype.
They loved Kingsbarns and The Castle course....(the two fake ones) and said they would return. I think the average golfer wont care if they are modern, they like what they see and apart from the greens were a bit wild  said that was the only spoiler. A lot like to view a hole and have it all pretty much in front of you. You tend to get that with modern courses which these two are. They did not like aiming a bushes and ending up in bunkers.

[Pat Burke]

I do agree with Melvyn's opinion that the motivations of the Links Trust for building the new course were less than pure.  They were obviously jealous of the success of Kingsbarns and the fact that it was siphoning away the green fee $ of visitors who were in town for 2-3 days trying to get on The Old Course, and apparently thought they could just go out and intercept that business by building a fancy new course closer to town.  

In fact, I did hear people involved with both the Castle course and with Castle Stuart (but NOT the architects in either instance) talk about how they were going to build something much better than Kingsbarns.  To me that is setting yourself up for a fall.  We never said that about Bandon Dunes when we were building Pacific ... nor about any of our neighbors (old or new) while working at The Renaissance Club.  Our goal was only to do our best work on the piece of ground we had.  But, that's the problem with shooting for the moon on a totally created project, you can't set a reasonable goal for it.

AHHHHH, which begins to explain a lot!  Well said, and more tot he point, well done!

[Anthony Gray]

    I would imagine The Castle Course was the most anticipated course in some time,so it would difficult to design something at "The Home of Golf" that would measure up to the hype.I think the over the top greens were a result of people saying Pac Dunes greens were better than the Bandon Dunes greens because they had more movement.In the book DREAM GOLF DMK hints that idea.

   Anthony

Anthony,

I have not read this book, but until you quote me the passage I don't think it is fair to say this about David's motivations ... or about our work for that matter.

  Tom,

  I gave my copy away,but it was mentioned when the author was playing BD with DMK.Not exact quote put DMK made a comment that BD greens were not flat.The Castle Course certainly does not have flat greens.Wish I had my copy.

  Anthony

[Ulrich Mayring]

I haven't played the course, just looked at it and Kingsbarns. What struck me immediately about the Castle course is that it looks small. I'm sure it isn't, but it feels very small and not in a good "all laid out in front of you" way. The scale of the site just isn't comparable with Kingsbarns, which makes a much bolder and more generous statement.

There are too many little dunes, hollows, grassy hillocks and whatnot at the Castle, it looks like a playing field divided into small sections and you have to get from one section to the next. The air of freedom, of being able to go wherever you want to go, that the other St Andrews courses all have, is missing here.

I am certain that it is a very clever design and it might well be a lot of fun to play. I would have given it a shot, if it were anywhere near the prices of courses such as Leven, Crail, Elie or Ladybank. Quite frankly, given the Links Trust's stated motives, I don't understand why they made this course so expensive.

Ulrich