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Dan Herrmann

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Estate Courses
« on: October 09, 2010, 09:50:36 PM »
About two weeks ago I played my first estate course, Dellwood (AWT) in New City, NY.  Dellwood is now a private club, but it was originally built for one person.

Are there any estate courses today that remain as estate courses?  How does their design quality compare to the architect's other work?

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2010, 12:22:40 AM »
The one that comes to mind is Sunnyside in Rancho Mirage, on the estate of the late Walter Annenburg.

Bob

Colin Macqueen

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2010, 12:39:10 AM »
The late Kerry Packer's Ellerston Golf Course in the Upper Hunter, New South Wales, Australia is still extant (and exclusive) I believe.

A Greg Norman design but very well thought of.

http://www.ausgolf.com.au/guide/club/EllerstonGolfClub/review

Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Chris Buie

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2010, 12:59:39 AM »
A family named Rockefeller had a private course about 20 miles from Pinehurst designed by a guy named Ross.  Averell Harriman had a cottage there.  The amenities were extensive - pretty much everything you would want (and more) in a country retreat.
The army owns it now and some very elite troops practice on the remnants of the course.



http://www.amazon.com/Overhills-Images-America-North-Carolina/dp/0738554332/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1285511096&sr=1-1


Here is a fairly extensive article about the interesting subject of private courses:
http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/all-for-one/1
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 08:03:32 AM by Chris Buie »

PCCraig

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2010, 12:25:27 PM »
Rich Harvest Links was built as an estate course...he's recently opened up the course to a small membership but he probably should of kept the course to himself.

Mill Road Farm was a highly regarded design in Lake Forest, IL, but it is now NLE. Some local students actually participated in an archeology class to find and plot where the old course was (now in people's backyards).

The Cuneo estate (the family owned a large printing company) in the northern suburbs of Chicago was built because the old man wasn't let into a local club. It was built literally in the front lawn of his home. It's still there but it's kept up at bare minimum. I was able to play the course about 10-12 years ago...nothing of note other than the cool feeling of playing in someone's yard and around the gardens.
H.P.S.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2010, 12:47:22 PM »
Pat,
Now THAT's funny (the RHL comment).

Peter Ferlicca

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2010, 02:23:33 PM »
Rancho Mirage is actually home to two private estate courses.  Sunnyside is a 9 hole private club which is mainly known as just the Annenberg Estate.  You really can't see anything when driving by it, but it looks to be on a settle hill and looks cool from the aerial. 

The other is of course Porcupine Creek, which is the Blixseths former estate.  This is a full 19 hole golf course, 4 big cottages, 4 small cottages, and a mansion of a house.  And all of it is tucked back right up against the mountain, very pretty.  The bank is selling it for $55 million right now, buy it while it is hot, haha.  I really can't imagine who would buy it other than a high end resort trying to make it a stay and play place.

Bret Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2010, 08:37:35 AM »
There's a unique and beautifully maintained estate course at Asherwood in Carmel, Indiana, just half a mile south of Crooked Stick. Asherwood is the property of the late Mel Simon, the founder of the largest shopping mall company, Simon Property Group (SPG), and owner with his brother Herb of the Indiana Pacers.

Steve Smyers designed the course and fit 12 greens on 91 acres. Because of the routing and multitude of tees, it can play as "three distinct nines" and thus three different par-72 courses.

Smyers, whose Wolf Run is about 10 minutes north in Zionsville, Indiana, also built an executive course at Asherwood, which has 12 additional greens but, again, because of numerous tees, can play as an 18-hole short course.

Here's an aerial map: http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=39.93507434827858~-86.18865697798157&lvl=17&sty=h&sp=Point.qnwrrn7tphjq_Asherwood%20Golf%20Course%2C%20Carmel%2C%20IN____~Point.qnwrrn7tphjq_Carmel%2C%20IN____~Point.qnp7tz7thvhn_Asherwood%20Golf%20Course%2C%20Carmel%2C%20IN____&where1=Carmel%2C%20IN

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2010, 08:40:05 AM »
Bret - thanks - good info.

Have you ever seen the course?

(and welcome!!)

Mark McKeever

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 08:50:44 AM »
Great topic Dan!  I have always wondered about this sort of thing myself. 

Thanks for posting the article Chris.  Interesting reading.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Bret Swanson

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2010, 08:57:42 AM »
Thanks. Glad to be here. I've learned a lot from the GCA group.

Yes, I've seen, but not played, Asherwood . . . only a golf cart tour at around 6 in the evening. Hoping to play soon.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2010, 08:59:51 AM »
Bret - if you get to play it (or tour it), ask the owner if you can take some photos.  It sounds pretty cool - I wonder how similar it is to the Sheep Ranch?

Bill_McBride

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2010, 09:14:56 AM »
Bret - if you get to play it (or tour it), ask the owner if you can take some photos.  It sounds pretty cool - I wonder how similar it is to the Sheep Ranch?

Check out the aerial, it doesn't look anything like the Sheep Ranch!  I tried to count the bunkers, lost track!  It's definitely a Smyers course!

There are very defined corridors, so I don't think you'd be playing from tee #4 to green #7, etc, a la the Sheep Ranch. 

The maintenance budget must be staggering.

Chris Shaida

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2010, 10:27:50 AM »
"A family named Rockefeller had a private course about 20 miles from Pinehurst designed by a guy named Ross. "

A family named Rockefeller has a private course in Pocantico, NY designed by a guy named Flynn.  Had 12 or 13 greens, one of which was a double green and several others that served as the green for two holes (since they didn't have to worry about course traffic!).

It is still being maintained and used by the family, albeit it now as just a 10 hole course.  The greens are tiny and there are no fairways (so it plays longer than the measured distance on most holes).

Jason Topp

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2010, 01:32:05 PM »
Woodhill feels like an estate course.  Here is a picture of the 9th green from Tommy Williamson's thread on the course:


Travis Dewire

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2010, 01:52:31 PM »
Ahh, The Vanderbilts, and The Harrimans. Sounds like the Pinehurst course was a masterpiece, and the Flynn course was more for fun to play around on.

How about Dellwood being a Tillinghast design? Many of your lacked to cite a championship architect as building the other estate courses built around the world. How was the merit of the design? Was it a true masterpiece like his other courses? Or was it done quickly and was not given Tillinghast's usual attention due to the type of project?

Is The Tillinghast family history, and their influence on early American History, noted when A.W is talked about? Or is this just assumed information by architect followers?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2010, 01:43:46 AM »
Dan,

Here is an article on topic by Jeff Silverman:

http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/all-for-one/1

Many of these courses have been discussed here.

Here's an old thread on some local estate courses:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32391.msg642619/topicseen/

« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 01:48:59 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2010, 08:44:56 AM »
Woodhill feels like an estate course.  Here is a picture of the 9th green from Tommy Williamson's thread on the course:



Wow! That looks really neat...
H.P.S.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2010, 09:24:35 AM »
Travis,

Welcome to the fun!

You asked, "How about Dellwood being a Tillinghast design?"

It is an original Tilly design.

"Many of your lacked to cite a championship architect as building the other estate courses built around the world. How was the merit of the design? Was it a true masterpiece like his other courses?"

I would compare Dellwood to the Philadelphia Cricket Club and Dallas' Brook Hollow. Like them it was 6300+ yards and built to challenge the best players while being a fun course for Zukor's guests. Zukor wanted a championship layout.

"Or was it done quickly and was not given Tillinghast's usual attention due to the type of project?"

Tilly wasn't one to mail in a project. If he was hired he always tried to create something unique and that would best fit the site. If he wasn't going to be on site he would often times make complete hole models from which the contractors could build from more accurately than simply by looking at his plans. No, we haven't found any models of Zukor's Mountain View Farms but we have photographs of Tilly there while it was being constructed.

"Is The Tillinghast family history, and their influence on early American History, noted when A.W is talked about? Or is this just assumed information by architect followers?"

It isn't assumed information. You can read a good deal of information about Tilly's forebears in the biography, Tillinghast: Creator of Golf Courses. It traces his lenage from when Pardon Tillinghast left England after serving in Cornwallis' army his sons and more who would take the lead in Rhode Island polotics, those who would take part in leadership during the Revolutionary War, serve on the Rhode Island Supreme Court and down through his Father, Benjamin Collins Tillinghast who left the Naval Academy 6 months short of graduating due to an illness (most likely tuberculosis) and then started the Tillinghast Rubber Goods Co. which lasted until the early 1950s when his daughter closed its doors forever some 10 years or so after Tilly died. There is also information about Tilly's daughters and sons-in-law as well as his grand-children.

If you have specific questions about his family ask away. For example, somethings that aren't in the biography are the side of his family that was also involved in the rubber business to the extent of the inventions of various types of rubber tube tires. The Tillinghast Family Association, more than 4,500 strong, meet every two years or so and are quite well organized.


Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2010, 10:07:51 AM »
Travis,
I can tell you that Dellwood is the real deal.  Some quirks due to a road crossing #1 and #7, but overall a very fine golf course.  The upcoming restoration/rejuvenation work should be result in an even better golf course.

TEPaul

Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2010, 07:21:47 PM »
"It is still being maintained and used by the family, albeit it now as just a 10 hole course."

Chris:

That's the way it always was but it was designed to be reversible and that's the way it plays.

Scott Weersing

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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2018, 10:11:19 PM »
The above twice mentioned Sunnyside is actually Sunnylands, designed by Dick Wilson and recently restored by Jackson/Kahn.


It's now part of The Annenberg Retreat. Here is an interesting article on the course:


https://sunnylands.org/article/sunnylands-spotlight-keeping-the-greens-green/


Here is the work done by Jackson/Kahn:


http://www.jacksonkahndesign.com/sunnylands.html


If you're in the area, a tour is well worth it:


http://sunnylands.org/tour-the-historic-estate/
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jeff Schley

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2018, 11:24:43 PM »
Bunker Hill Farms, outside Chicago in Woodstock, Ill is another one that is very commonly used in charity auctions now.  Here are a few links:
http://bhfarms.com/home-splash/
https://www.chicagogolfreport.com/chicagos-exclusive-golf-course-bunker-hill-farms/
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff Schley

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Re: Estate Courses
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2018, 11:26:35 PM »
The above twice mentioned Sunnyside is actually Sunnylands, designed by Dick Wilson and recently restored by Jackson/Kahn.


It's now part of The Annenberg Retreat. Here is an interesting article on the course:


https://sunnylands.org/article/sunnylands-spotlight-keeping-the-greens-green/


Here is the work done by Jackson/Kahn:


http://www.jacksonkahndesign.com/sunnylands.html


If you're in the area, a tour is well worth it:


http://sunnylands.org/tour-the-historic-estate/
A lot of history there.  For this past spring's auction for the Kahn family auction fundraiser for their daughters there were 2 packages put up to use Sunnylands.  https://forebatten.auction-bid.org/microsite/items/651536
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine