A critics rant from Ron Whitten

[David Stamm]

I think Whitten had a Jerry Maguire moment and ate some bad pizza when writing this. Some goofy and downright unintelligent remarks.


http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2010-11/whitten-course-critic-rant

[Bill_McBride]

David, I'm curious about what you see as truly innovative in modern golf design?

(I know I have a personal preference for courses that echo the past but with modern infrastructure, but is that truly innovative?)

Mr. Whitten does seem a bit dyspeptic in his essay!

[Kenny Baer]

David,

I just briefly scanned the article so can't really comment on the overall quality of his literary skills but I do get the point he was trying to make.  

I feel that everyone already has predetermined what is good architecture; so to differ from that is to take on risk which nowadays archies can not afford to piss a client off.

Golf Arch is architecture not art, although of course there is art in architecture....(I just confused myself), golf is a game with a predetermined set of rules which limits what can and can not be done with a golf course.  Much like a building there needs to be functionality as to where true art has no specific purposes and therefore is only limited to ones imagination.

I have heard Whitten make this point before but imo it makes little sense as it is not practical.  

Think about the stuff that was truly trying to step outside the box of the last 20 years; is it not the stuff that is universally panned?    

[Melvyn Morrow]

For his 40 odd years in the business he portrays a man that seems to have understood very little about the game.

Melvyn

[Garland Bayley]

I'm sorry Mr. Whiffen, but were a nation of stagnators. Just look at the sorry state of our national pasttime. The bats haven't improved. They haven't made multicover balls that go farther, and stadiums are not being built larger, just indoors. Perhaps we can move the golf professionals to playing on perfect surfaces indoors. That at least would be an innovation that you so desire.


Sorry, Mr. Whiffen, but I think you whiffed this one.
 

[Kenny Baer]

For his 40 odd years in the business he portrays a man that seems to have understood very little about the game.

Melvyn

Would you mind elaborating, I am interested in your opiniion as to why.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm sorry Mr. Whiffen, but were a nation of stagnators. Just look at the sorry state of our national pasttime. The bats haven't improved. They haven't made multicover balls that go farther, and stadiums are not being built larger, just indoors. Perhaps we can move the golf professionals to playing on perfect surfaces indoors. That at least would be an innovation that you so desire.


Sorry, Mr. Whiffen, but I think you whiffed this one.
 

Garland, are you saying it's bad that baseball hasn't juiced up the ball so that bigger stadia would be required?  That would make a lot of expensive property obsolete in a hurry.

One of the things I love about baseball is that the 90' from base to base hasn't changed in 140 years, and neither has the 60'6" from the rubber to the plate.  On a ground ball in the hole, the shortstop still has to make a perfect catch and throw to get the runner at first.  This gives the game a consistent framework, something golf hasn't had and that GCA.com members complain about every day.

[David Stamm]

David, I'm curious about what you see as truly innovative in modern golf design?

(I know I have a personal preference for courses that echo the past but with modern infrastructure, but is that truly innovative?)

Mr. Whitten does seem a bit dyspeptic in his essay!

Bill, I'm not saying he isn't right per se about the innovation part, although his broad, sweeping statements are a bit amateurish for someone who has been covering this subject for so long. I just don't think he is correctly interpreting what "innovation" means. No two pieces of ground are alike, so to make the comments he made about the templates being antiquated is a little dumb when different interpretations of these holes can be done by all different types of architects on all different types of situations and yet, they all can look and play very differently. And he really thinks that there hasn't been any "new" greens in 150 years? What does he want? Clowns mouths with bubbles coming out? This isn't rocket science and there are only so many ways to skin a cat before you cross the line like Muirhead and start with the minature golf concepts.

[PCCraig]

I don't think it's as bad as others do on this thread. If nothing else it makes you think about which GCA's are actually trying to develop new hole strategies and new features.

Sometimes new ideas fail, but you have to give people credit for trying something new and pushing the envelope occationally.

[Pete Lavallee]

Was anything innovative done at Erin Hills? Either you're part of the problem or part of the solution.

[Garland Bayley]

I'm sorry Mr. Whiffen, but were a nation of stagnators. Just look at the sorry state of our national pasttime. The bats haven't improved. They haven't made multicover balls that go farther, and stadiums are not being built larger, just indoors. Perhaps we can move the golf professionals to playing on perfect surfaces indoors. That at least would be an innovation that you so desire.


Sorry, Mr. Whiffen, but I think you whiffed this one.
 

Garland, are you saying it's bad that baseball hasn't juiced up the ball so that bigger stadia would be required?  That would make a lot of expensive property obsolete in a hurry.

One of the things I love about baseball is that the 90' from base to base hasn't changed in 140 years, and neither has the 60'6" from the rubber to the plate.  On a ground ball in the hole, the shortstop still has to make a perfect catch and throw to get the runner at first.  This gives the game a consistent framework, something golf hasn't had and that GCA.com members complain about every day.

No, I'm saying it's bad that Mr. Whiffen complained about the stagnation (lack of innovation) of golf when the movement has been away from stagnation. I'm also saying what's wrong with stagnation? Baseball stagnated a long time ago, then some one got innovative and started taking steroids. Hooray for innovation. NOT!

I am also saying that Mr. Whiffen says designers need to deal with the longer distances. Well duh! If the ball goes longer you have to build the courses longer and WIDER. That costs money duh! He thinks the great recession is the time to bring this up? Someone within reach of him should dope slap him several times! All I can do is  from my keyboard.

Perhaps he should get down on his knees and pray for some natural disasters that will rearrange the landscape into something that is golfable, but yet innovative. Too bad, God isn't to innovative with his land. Our architects are suffering because of it.

[Garland Bayley]

Was anyhting innovative done at Erin Hills? Either you're part of the problem or part of the solution.

He said in the article that he was part of the problem.

[Richard Choi]

Garland, have you been to a classic old stadiums like Fenway, Wrigley, and now deceased Tiger Stadium and Yakees stadium? Compare those stadiums to the new modern marvels like Coors Field, Safeco Field, and New Yankees Stadium and tell me there have been no innovations.

The new stadiums have the same charm and ambiance of the old classics but with better sight-lines, better food, better access, more comfortable seats, better traffic flow, better bathrooms, suites, and countless other improvements that makes going to the ballgame a real pleasure. There is a reason why a team that lost over 100 games can still draw over 2 million people.

Bats have improved greatly as well with the latest in graphite and aluminum bats. Sure, they are not used in the pros, but they get used by more people. The gloves have improved and shoes as well. Baseball has not stood still.

[George Pazin]

Baseball has not stood still.

But has it advanced?

For his 40 odd years in the business he portrays a man that seems to have understood very little about the game.

Melvyn

After reading the rant article, I think I agree with this 100%.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Dear Ron,
You haven't seen everything built of interest.
You've seen the highly marketable for your magazine.
Cheers

P.S.
I'd recheck your comment about Cypress Point.
I think it is wrong.
Cheers

[Mac Plumart]

I don't get what people who make these types of criticisms want.  If I remember correctly Forest Richardson made similiar comments on a GCA thread recently.  It seem like the same things constantly reveal themselves as things golfers want, regardless of the fad and/or fashion of the day.

St. Andrews Old Course, Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Merion, Royal Melbourne have been regarded as among the very, very best golf courses in the world for as long as they have been tracking these things.

Yet, some cousres (like Black Diamond Ranch, Shadow Creek, Trump National) make a splash and for a time are regarded as the best in the world...but yet they fade over time.

Perhaps these time tested principles will stand the test of time for a reason and, therefore, we don't need innovation in design elements.

I'll buy that innovation is needed regarding types of grass, maintenance practices, business models (more nine hole courses as an example)...but in the design area?  I don't know.  

[Paul_Turner]

I guess golf journalists have run out of ideas too.

[PThomas]

Was anything innovative done at Erin Hills? Either you're part of the problem or part of the solution.

exactly what I was thinking Pete....and its not llike they got it right the first time there

[Garland Bayley]

... better food, better access, more comfortable seats, better traffic flow, better bathrooms, suites, ...

Wow CC of the D for baseball. You don't have to like baseball, you can get by with comfortable seats, good food, and bathroom spas.

Sort of like you don't have to play golf at the CC of the D, while riding your cart and observing the waterfalls.

[Ross Tuddenham]

He seems to have missed the point of his own analogy.  He is saying golf lacks innovation because it still uses the same basics such as greens and hole designs/strategies. So for music to have gone through and innovation under his terms it should no longer be made up of guitars, drums, piano's, violins or the voice to be classed as having innovation?

Likewise architecture should have abandoned concrete, steel, four walls and floors and ceilings.  But neither architecture or music have abandoned these things.  The have all been arranged to form different aesthetic styles but the basics are still there, as with golf.  Just look at Old MacDonald, Tom Doak seems to have found I way to use many old basics to please the modern golfer with the modern balls and modern clubs.

[Mike Nuzzo]

How has the ASGCA promoted innovation in design?

I think they have promoted innovation in environmentalism.

[Jim Hoak]

I'm all for innovation--and there has been a lot--in grasses, irrigation, maintenance, drainage, green upkeep, etc., but the classic design is still the standard by which I judge courses.  Classic beauty need not be thrown out for jarring, unpleasant innovation, just for the sake of innovation.  I like old houses, but I'm all for modern plumbing, heating and air, etc.

[Ronald Montesano]

A...This just in...plans to expand the alphabet and the the first ten arabic numberals have been put on hold.

B...How long did it take before some suck-up mentioned Doak...Way to go, young Ross.

C...This just in...roads to now have three directions:  this way, the other way, and sideways.

D...I like Muirhead

E...Anyone named Ron is off-limits from criticism...we've had to endure allusions to the ridiculous McDonald's clown for years.

F...This just in...apostrophes to be eliminated (no one uses them correctly, anyway), to be followed by the semi-colon...;

[Bill_McBride]

A...This just in...plans to expand the alphabet and the the first ten arabic numberals have been put on hold.

B...How long did it take before some suck-up mentioned Doak...Way to go, young Ross.

C...This just in...roads to now have three directions:  this way, the other way, and sideways.

D...I like Muirhead

E...Anyone named Ron is off-limits from criticism...we've had to endure allusions to the ridiculous McDonald's clown for years.

F...This just in...apostrophes to be eliminated (no one uses them correctly, anyway), to be followed by the semi-colon...;

What has caused today's curmudgeonly attitude, Sr Tricks?   

[Peter Pallotta]

Strange. He's done this before - used an essay in a national/popular magazine to speak not to 2 million people but to 20. Or so it seems.

Peter